Low Budget Lifepo4 Experiences anyone?

[Dave9111]

There at risks and issues for any battery chemistry. I have done the math, shopped around and looked at at all the options. The charts and data so far show that lifepo4 cells are the best working solution for the money and for the space, at least for me and my boat. I am looking at 800-1000ah with a raw cell bank, which is impossible with any lead acid or commercial lithium package. I am looking at other upgrades, like better refer box, and better monitoring equipment but unfortunately right now the battery bank landed in my lap first.

Yay! A logical argument for using Lifepo4 batteries!



I have no idea how Battleborn can sell their batteries at the prices they do! I'm seeing $8-900 for a 100AH battery!?!?



Regarding 6V batteries, the cost for them at Costco and Sams Club is very good. The Duracells that Sams sells have a good reputation. Costco sells Interstate and I know they are made on contract by other battery makers but I have had very good luck with them. I tested two Interstate group 24 deep cycles recently that I really abuse. They are 4 years old and they had no noticeable self discharge over the last 4 months and they tested as new. I don't know how they do that, but I'm good with that!

[Scubaseas]

I'd like to thanks the OP, Franziska for starting this thread. While a lot of CF threads go way off into the woods this one has yielded a very good discussion on LiFePo4 batteries. So thanks!

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by Dave9111

Yay! A logical argument for using Lifepo4 batteries!

I think you should start a thread entitled "prove to me that LiFePO4 is nothing but a fad"

I have no idea how Battleborn can sell their batteries at the prices they do! I'm seeing $8-900 for a 100AH battery!?!?

But you do know. It has been documented time and time again. LiFePO4 is a game changer.

Let me put it this way - Lead Acid is rcs, AGM is subversion and LiFePO4 is git. Git is a game changer.

Regarding 6V batteries, the cost for them at Costco and Sams Club is very good. The Duracells that Sams sells have a good reputation. Costco sells Interstate and I know they are made on contract by other battery makers but I have had very good luck with them. I tested two Interstate group 24 deep cycles recently that I really abuse. They are 4 years old and they had no noticeable self discharge over the last 4 months and they tested as new. I don't know how they do that, but I'm good with that!

Those are very good comments for a thread entitled "6V golf cart batteries and where to find them"

Of course I am poking a bit of fun here and hope everyone will take it in stride. The OP is looking for direct experiences in the construction and operation of Low Budget LiFePO4 installations. Somehow we have drifted (imagine that).

[Dave9111]

Originally Posted by alaskanviking

I am a little worried about the insurance company. Not nessesarily about coverage.

There isn't standards yet, and I know shiesty insurance company a will use anything they can against you if it comes up in a survey. Who do you get to inspect and certify your battery bank to protect your butt. Have A local electrical engineer look at your system, and write a letter? I guess all the more reason to really dig into the weeds and make sure you set up your system well, adding anything safety related you can, and document schematics and equipment in your system well. If there was an issue I suspect it won't be just the insurance company but equipment companies pointing fingers also. But that's any battery really. Doesn't dissuade me from going lithium, just more to consider. Ancillary safety equipment does increase the price a bit.

My insurance company (Geico) has said nothing about Lithium batteries yet.

I'm a consulting Electrical Engineer. I've been doing it for a long time.
No Electrical Engineer worth his salt will write a letter saying your Lifepo4 electrical installation is ok just by looking at it. When an engineer does that they are assuming some liability. That's not a minor thing. If a lawsuit comes about, they can go after the engineer that blessed the system. I've seen it happen.

They (the engineer) will ask questions like... are those cells CE, UL, or CSA approved? What about the BMS system. Is that approved?

The engineer will want to try and rely on proven equipment before blessing anything. So what happens if you have a homebuilt battery bank using unknown quality cells and BMS systems??

Once ABYC figures Lithium batteries out, they could be asking questions like.. if you have a Lithium battery on your boat, is it approved by UL or CE, or CSA? That could in turn be repeated by your insurance company towards you.

So what happens if you spent $4000 into a Lithium battery system and nothing is approved, what can you do?

My guess would be to find a different insurance company that doesn't care, or replace whatever is not approved!

That could get expensive.

There are some UL approved Lithium cells out there:
https://www.electriccarpartscompany....fied-batteries

But they aren't $50 each!

There are a number of standards for Lithium batteries.

Some really bad Lithium Ion battery fires started all of this.
Remember the burning Samsung phones? The fires on the airliners?
There is a reason why you can't ship larger Lithium batteries via planes.

https://www.csagroup.org/testing-cer...nergy-storage/

https://www.ul.com/industries/energy...energy-storage

https://www.ul.com/services/battery-...-manufacturers

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Dave9111

Yay! A logical argument for using Lifepo4 batteries!



I have no idea how Battleborn can sell their batteries at the prices they do! I'm seeing $8-900 for a 100AH battery!?!?



Regarding 6V batteries, the cost for them at Costco and Sams Club is very good. The Duracells that Sams sells have a good reputation. Costco sells Interstate and I know they are made on contract by other battery makers but I have had very good luck with them. I tested two Interstate group 24 deep cycles recently that I really abuse. They are 4 years old and they had no noticeable self discharge over the last 4 months and they tested as new. I don't know how they do that, but I'm good with that!

A simple load tester will not ahow any issues unless it is actually dead . What is your current 20 hr rated ah on your FLA golf cart batteries ?

My lfp is still at the same 264ah it was at when i put it in service last year..

My older 100 ah bank i use and abuse in the shop is still at 107ah as when built 5 years ago .

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Dave9111

My insurance company (Geico) has said nothing about Lithium batteries yet.

I'm a consulting Electrical Engineer. I've been doing it for a long time.
No Electrical Engineer worth his salt will write a letter saying your Lifepo4 electrical installation is ok just by looking at it. When an engineer does that they are assuming some liability. That's not a minor thing. If a lawsuit comes about, they can go after the engineer that blessed the system. I've seen it happen.

They (the engineer) will ask questions like... are those cells CE, UL, or CSA approved? What about the BMS system. Is that approved?

The engineer will want to try and rely on proven equipment before blessing anything. So what happens if you have a homebuilt battery bank using unknown quality cells and BMS systems??

Once ABYC figures Lithium batteries out, they could be asking questions like.. if you have a Lithium battery on your boat, is it approved by UL or CE, or CSA? That could in turn be repeated by your insurance company towards you.

So what happens if you spent $4000 into a Lithium battery system and nothing is approved, what can you do?

My guess would be to find a different insurance company that doesn't care, or replace whatever is not approved!

That could get expensive.

There are some UL approved Lithium cells out there:
https://www.electriccarpartscompany....fied-batteries

But they aren't $50 each!

There are a number of standards for Lithium batteries.

Some really bad Lithium Ion battery fires started all of this.
Remember the burning Samsung phones? The fires on the airliners?
There is a reason why you can't ship larger Lithium batteries via planes.

https://www.csagroup.org/testing-cer...nergy-storage/

https://www.ul.com/industries/energy...energy-storage

https://www.ul.com/services/battery-...-manufacturers

For a self identified enguneer you are makung several major mistakes in yourbpostings .
We are talking about lithium iron phosphate not lithium cobalt or lithium ion in cell phones .

[rapanui 2]

hello have you think to build it yourself, chesk this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIL1MlHqNAE

tesla batterie are built same way...

next year we will need to replace our batteries before moving on board longtime. So far I was settled on lead acid batteries but I just stumbled over a youtube video with a guy testing some low priced B grade Lifepo4 batteries.

Looks surprisingly decent. Might be an idea to get together with few others and order one set extra to replace any bad cells. Its a bit of a gamble that they are all good, but seems unlikely that they are all bad.

Has someone experiences with these batteries (see precise model & video at the bottom of this post).

We are on a budget, so please do not trash this with comments like mine are 3 times as expensive and therefore better.
If they do not last quite as much in the long run as grade A high end models I am ok with that. We can afford a replacement in the same pricerange several years down the line, we can not afford grade A right now.

An alternative would be wet LA cells, but as they need 50% more capacity than Lifepo4 I wonder if these would not be a good solution.

Last not least, how long could I store these without using them? We would start using them spring next year.

439€ for 280Ah@3.2V/Cell joined to 280Ah@12V with free (slow) shipping to Germany seems hard to beat.
As Lifepo4 seems to have less of issue with deep discharging than lead acid I'd think we could be happy with two of these packs = 560Ah@12V
In case of lead acid we would need to buy about 800-1000Ah.

Specifically this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U4ZfQ_IToI

And these cells:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...Log=new_Detail[/QUOTE]

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by rapanui 2

hello have you think to build it yourself, chesk this video

tesla batterie are built same way...

next year we will need to replace our batteries before moving on board longtime. So far I was settled on lead acid batteries but I just stumbled over a youtube video with a guy testing some low priced B grade Lifepo4 batteries.

Looks surprisingly decent. Might be an idea to get together with few others and order one set extra to replace any bad cells. Its a bit of a gamble that they are all good, but seems unlikely that they are all bad.

Has someone experiences with these batteries (see precise model & video at the bottom of this post).

We are on a budget, so please do not trash this with comments like mine are 3 times as expensive and therefore better.
If they do not last quite as much in the long run as grade A high end models I am ok with that. We can afford a replacement in the same pricerange several years down the line, we can not afford grade A right now.

An alternative would be wet LA cells, but as they need 50% more capacity than Lifepo4 I wonder if these would not be a good solution.

Last not least, how long could I store these without using them? We would start using them spring next year.

439€ for 280Ah@3.2V/Cell joined to 280Ah@12V with free (slow) shipping to Germany seems hard to beat.
As Lifepo4 seems to have less of issue with deep discharging than lead acid I'd think we could be happy with two of these packs = 560Ah@12V
In case of lead acid we would need to buy about 800-1000Ah.

Specifically this video:

And these cells:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005...Log=new_Detail

[/QUOTE]

My bank by the numbers that matter . Rated 240ah measured at 264.8ah so I call it 250ah.


https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3063595

[Dave9111]

Originally Posted by newhaul

For a self identified enguneer you are makung several major mistakes in yourbpostings .
We are talking about lithium iron phosphate not lithium cobalt or lithium ion in cell phones .

Yes, I read this threads title...

You're not picking up/comprehending what I'm saying.

Poor implementations of Lithium Ion batteries gave every other Lithium chemistry a bad reputation for "danger".

That's why its such a hassle to ship Lithium batteries of any type now.


I know the difference. But the clowns that make the rules really don't.
And the people who enforce the shipping rules, know even less.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Dave9111

Yes, I read this threads title...

You're not picking up/comprehending what I'm saying.

Poor implementations of Lithium Ion batteries gave every other Lithium chemistry a bad reputation for "danger".

That's why its such a hassle to ship Lithium batteries of any type now.


I know the difference. But the clowns that make the rules really don't.
And the people who enforce the shipping rules, know even less.

Except it's not a problem . Mine are always air shipped and well over 200ah per cell.

What is the makeup of your lfp bank if I am ask?

[Dave9111]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Except it's not a problem . Mine are always air shipped and well over 200ah per cell.

What is the makeup of your lfp bank if I am ask?

Have you ever shipped Lithium batteries of any type?

Have you read the regulations?
If you have a few hours .....

China ships a lot of stuff illegally. But it is rarely checked, so it gets through anyway. It does not surprise me that they shipped you a battery via air.

Next time you get a Lithium battery shipped to you via air, check out the regulations and see if its even close. There will be a lot of stickers on the box if it was legal.

I get Chinese shipments periodically and they are oftentimes marked as "gift". The last one was marked as "documents". Microcontrollers as documents !?!?

I don't have a Lithium battery bank on my boat. For reasons stated, it makes no sense for me at this time. And right now, I don't think it makes any sense for 95%+ of the boats out there.

I deal with new technology all of the time. Its constantly evolving.
Batteries are fairly boring compared to everything that is going on.

[Opie91]

Originally Posted by Dave9111

I don't have a Lithium battery bank on my boat. For reasons stated, it makes no sense for me at this time. And right now, I don't think it makes any sense for 95%+ of the boats out there. .

You know that LifePO4 installation is not mandatory, correct?


You are probably right about 95% of the people do not need lithium right now, but your on a forum full of the other 5%.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Dave9111

Have you ever shipped Lithium batteries of any type?

Have you read the regulations?
If you have a few hours .....

China ships a lot of stuff illegally. But it is rarely checked, so it gets through anyway. It does not surprise me that they shipped you a battery via air.

Next time you get a Lithium battery shipped to you via air, check out the regulations and see if its even close. There will be a lot of stickers on the box if it was legal.

I get Chinese shipments periodically and they are oftentimes marked as "gift". The last one was marked as "documents". Microcontrollers as documents !?!?

I don't have a Lithium battery bank on my boat. For reasons stated, it makes no sense for me at this time. And right now, I don't think it makes any sense for 95%+ of the boats out there.

I deal with new technology all of the time. Its constantly evolving.
Batteries are fairly boring compared to everything that is going on.

Have you read the regulations on air shipping lifepo4 cells ? Yes they were shipped legally via DHL.
Btw my handle newhaul is for my trucking company Newby hauling i know the regulations quite well .

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by Dave9111

SNIP

I don't have a Lithium battery bank on my boat. For reasons stated, it makes no sense for me at this time. And right now, I don't think it makes any sense for 95%+ of the boats out there.

SNIP

Given the 10 plus years of discussion on CF of LiFePO4 installations including the comments and opinions of a number of engineers, installers, designers and just plain folks.

It begs the question: What do you bring to this conversation? What special insight do you possess?

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Hey thanks.

No, we will not run large inverters.
We just have some loads which run longer once in a while.

Its less about a pointload for us but more about continous draw. I am aware that we need to charge that back in though.

As you seem to be into the subject to some degree, we have a Waeco 1235 charger (can handle 220V & 110V input & charges up to 35A@12V, https://www.dometic.com/en-gb/uk/pro...a-1235-_-52943) right now, would we need somthing bigger for shoreside charging? Or, add a second Waeco 1235 for the larger banks (560Ah @ 12v or even 840Ah @12v)?
At sea we have a 2.6kWh Genset, 5x solar & a windgen for now.

Few suggestions:
1. you can very much trust the sources recommended by Will Prowse at Aliexpress, or also ask at the DIY Solarforum (or send me a PM). There are even original manufacturers at Alibaba that would sell you a set of four cells. Make sure the seller provide you photos of each unit voltage (should be 3.2-3.3V), although you cannot always trust them.

2. BMS is necessary for each 4 units (12V) or 8 units (24V). Daly is good and simple and has a passive balancer. Personally, I prefer active balancers but couldn't find one of a good quality and reasonable price. I added to the house 500A LFP (in addition to the existing 300A AGM and 200A cranking for the engine and generator). The LFP is 300A set and two more 100A sets each and each has a separate BMS.

3. Shore Power Charger is extremely important! you can stay with the 35A, it will just take longer to charge - for me, using a 50A Victron charger it is not an issue, as when I dock, it is for at least 12 hours (mostly for weeks or more...).
However! - Most chargers would not be suitable for a full optimized charging, even if they have a LiFePo charging mode. The charger need to be CCCV - Constant current and constant voltage of 16.8V in order to max the batteries capacity at 4.2V per unit. Standard 12V chargers usually get to 14.5V at the bulk mode (3.6V per unit), which will provide you more or less 70-80% capacity - still better than any AGM battery.

4. Even more important is the charging by the alternator. Unlike AGM that has high resistance and hence, slow charging, LFP will almost take whatever possible and overload the alternator. The expensive option is a heavy duty high output alternator (160-170A) with external regulator. The easier and safer option is to use a DC-DC charger that has LFP charging program (I use Victron) from the cranking battery (considering it is going to stay an AGM) to the LFP.

5. There are low cost (about $30) 4S voltmeters with panel displays to show you each unit voltage. It is important and a good way to know if one of the units is over or under charged.

I think the days of the flood batteries are going to be over, as even brand new, grade A LFP batteries are now offered around the same price or below AGM of the same rated current - but with much lower useable capacity. With their size, weight (~ 1/3 of AGM) and expected life, LFP are the way to go.

Best of luck