Low Budget Lifepo4 Experiences anyone?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by gaucho

Who is Julia? Hahaha.

A factory rep and member here on CF.
I posted her page link a few pages back .

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Cycle times


Winston


GBS


Sinopoly

Compare apples to apples... You made fruit salat...
Winston has 5000 cycles if you compare it correctly...

Who I am, now just a 100% liveaboard sailor since 2 years but was racing cars semiproffessional and building my own race cars since 30 years plus installing big car stereos. Dealing and installing Lithium since 15 years and LTO since 10years...all private for me and friends...

Winston generally overperform means data sheet is bare minimum you could get when unlucky while 99% of the rest these are unreal lab figures...if you get 70% you are lucky when cells are new grade A which 90% on Alibaba, xpress, ebay.... Are not. And thats real world experience and I paid my lessons learned too...

GBS I don't know them and don't care as I don't see anything thats triggering me...Lishen delivers nearly same (if datasheet is correct, which I know Lishen is) then your comparable GBS for nearly half the price (used my german dealer which is not cheap but 100% new grade A cells, you can get them for 50% less grade B) . Lishen I know and know what I get, GBS not.
And for a small amount more then GBS I would right away get Winston which I know is state of the art cells and know that they deliver min 10% more. Sometimes less is more...

Also regarding your whole electrical system. How many AH per day consumed? , how much do your charge sources deliver? How much space do you have to install? How many hours
without recharge? Whats the max ampere you draw constant over 2 min, whats your peak and whats your budget

For me 1800Euro delivered incl all taxes in 12V to Mallorca
A) 840AH Lishen Grade A
B) 1120? AH Lishen Grade B
C) 300AH Winston Grade A
D) 500aH CATL Grade A

For me: 200-250AH per day, 300A constant/450A peak, space what it needs, 80A charge average/180 peak, reserve as much as possible, budget 1800Euro.

As you can see the 840AH Lishen fit perfectly, max 0.5C dis/-charge, 3.5 days reserve and will last longer as Winston due to 2.5 times AH =Less cycling. The best I could get for my budget.
No parameter where in my config the Winston is an advantage or needed. On a mono with tight space, less solar and a big 250A alternator the winston would be the right choice...

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Isn't t funny that when it's your money you chose the more affordable alternative from a battery that is new to the market

Yet when it's my money, the same rules do not apply. Winston or nothing

I too can get the EVE delivered including all the upgrades for about 40% less than the GBS but didn't want to go that cheap on what to me appears to be a vastly lesser quality build.
But if you want to be the guinea pig.....

Never said you shouldn't buy Lishen and i installed the first Lishen 3 years ago in an hardcore off road RV of a friend, still going strong...and get more abuse then in a boat.
And I have 24 Lishen cells in my cat right know waiting for assembly and intall in Lanzarote. 12 for me with electrodacus BMS and 12 for a buddy boat with 250A Daly Smart BMS.

Many others and I too said they would choose Winston over GBS for the quoted price.

Make your due diligence, what do you need and really get delivered to your door for your budget.
And then decide... And use the parameters that matter... What do you need 10C discharge when you hardly get 0.5peak, 2C is enough then.

Lishen are cheaper then AGM, built quality is good BUT for a boat install you need to take additional measures when assembling your battery. Cheap and easy measure solve the M6 or M8 stud issue. Otherwise quality is good.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Isn't t funny that when it's your money you chose the more affordable alternative from a battery that is new to the market

Yet when it's my money, the same rules do not apply. Winston or nothing

I too can get the EVE delivered including all the upgrades for about 40% less than the GBS but didn't want to go that cheap on what to me appears to be a vastly lesser quality build.
But if you want to be the guinea pig.....

Never said you shouldn't buy Lishen
I nstalled the first Lishen 3 years ago in an hardcore off road RV of a friend, still going strong...and get more abuse then in a boat.
And I have 24 Lishen cells in my cat right know waiting for assembly and intall in Lanzarote. 12 for me with electrodacus BMS and 12 for a buddy boat with 250A Daly Smart BMS. So not theoretical sofa know how, real life experience and I will document how you built a house bat that will be more mechanically durable then Winnston cells. I know how as I built couple of them already.

Many others and I too said they would choose Winston over GBS for the quoted price and these for many reason quoted...

Make your due diligence, what do you need and really get delivered to your door for your budget.
And then decide... And use the parameters that matter... What do you need 10C discharge when you hardly get 0.5peak, 2C is enough then.

Lishen are cheaper then AGM, built quality is good BUT for a boat install you need to take additional measures when assembling your battery. Cheap and easy measure solve the M6 or M8 stud issue. Otherwise quality is good.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by gaucho

Who is Julia? Hahaha.

https://www.facebook.com/julia.yu.372

Some feedback from another forum:

My 400ah Winston cells arrived one month after ordering from Julia Yu of Sky Power. Shipped from Hong Kong to New Zealand.
I was impressed by the way they were crated and packed. Julia was also very much on the ball and kept me fully informed at all times.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

That info is simply incorrect. Just get the right datasheet. The Winstons cells at 80% DOD are >= 5,000 cycles; at 70% DOD they are >= 7,000 cycles. TSWB-LYP400AHA-B-Energy Storage-Home page｜Thunder Sky Winston Battery-

I stand corrected.
I simply cut and pasted the information from that resellers page
Further down the page they had the other specs

[Simi 60]

Ok, so after further review GBS is off my list

As stated earlier I would prefer Winston, but for the amount I think we need (520ah @ 24v) it's near enough $8k and not likely to happen.
And further to that, I am not convinced 520ah is going to be enough, not if we go electric galley in the future.

The EVE type, with laser welded studs bought through a "trusted seller" I can get a 580ah @24v build for $3700 or a massive 840ah@ 24v for just over $5000


I liken it , perhaps incorectly, to phones and tablets
Winston is the iPhone of batteries
I thought GBS to be a high end android,
And EVE/Lishen to be the cheapy that gets the job done
I have always bought the $50 droid that gets the job done

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by gaucho

Who is Julia? Hahaha.

What's so funny?

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Ok, so after further review GBS is off my list

As stated earlier I would prefer Winston, but for the amount I think we need (520ah @ 24v) it's near enough $8k and not likely to happen.
And further to that, I am not convinced 520ah is going to be enough, not if we go electric galley in the future.

Don't forget Calb. 600 AH @ 24 volts for $2700 US

My 400 AH @ 12 volts cost 902 US landed in Canada. Each 200 AH cell (CA180) cost $80 US from Lythbattery. The same battery from a US re-seller is $222 US.
Grade A marched cells. I am very pleased with Lythbattery. Rita Sun is the sales manager. https://www.lythbattery.com/calb-battery/

As far as cycles are concerned, has anybody verified these numbers? I doubt it. The manufacturer posts what they wish - who will argue?

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by mitiempo

Don't forget Calb. 600 AH @ 24 volts for $2700 US

My 400 AH @ 12 volts cost 902 US landed in Canada. Each 200 AH cell (CA180) cost $80 US from Lythbattery. The same battery from a US re-seller is $222 US.
Grade A marched cells. I am very pleased with Lythbattery. Rita Sun is the sales manager. https://www.lythbattery.com/calb-battery/

As far as cycles are concerned, has anybody verified these numbers? I doubt it. The manufacturer posts what they wish - who will argue?

It'll be 540ah @ 24v not 600
It'll also be 24 cells to get there, 3 x8 cells

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by newhaul

?? 600ah for the price at 24vdc the (ca180) is the Canadian price not the ah

CA180 is the Calb model #

The price is $80 US fob China.

About $100 Canadian

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by mitiempo

CA180 is the Calb model #

The price is $80 US fob China.

About $100 Canadian

Ok thanks for that correction

[Dave9111]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Don't remember if I posted this or not in this thread

Is this your own compilation based on published specs?


The fact that those Trojan Carbon cells have such good ratings is very interesting.

I'd consider them a trusted source. The specs for some of these Lithium cells you guys have been buying.... are questionable at best.




Dave

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Dave9111

Is this your own compilation based on published specs?


The fact that those Trojan Carbon cells have such good ratings is very interesting.

I'd consider them a trusted source. The specs for some of these Lithium cells you guys have been buying.... are questionable at best.




Dave

Actually Adele made the chart for us and I'm assuming all are published specs yes

I do know the specs and real word for my lfp cells . well above specs and I fully expect over 10k cycles due to my light usage of them . rarely use more than a 30% dod. Ie between 95% charge and 70% charge with max of .3C charge and even lower discharge rates

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Dave9111

Is this your own compilation based on published specs?

The fact that those Trojan Carbon cells have such good ratings is very interesting.

I'd consider them a trusted source. The specs for some of these Lithium cells you guys have been buying.... are questionable at best.

Dave

I did it from published specs except cycle life which was mostly published but in some cases adjusted to my personal biases.
For Plug-N-Play LFP I won’t believe more than 10yr of daily cycling regardless of depth of discharge. Yes the cells will have life left in them but not the BMS which is an integral part inside the sealed packaging.
I used that cycle life for NewHaul’s DIY LFP for consistency. In his cast the BMS is separate and could be replaced so lifetime costs are harder to predict but the BMS can be replaced separately at less cost.
For AGM cycle life I mostly used the published data but mindful of MaineSail’s discussions on his website where Optima & Lifetime were cagey about cycle life I assigned them numbers to suit my gut feelings as I recall.
I ultimately got volume data from NewHaul which I have used for an updated chart. SEE BELOW.

My conclusions are:
A. If up front costs are an issue:
1. DIY-LFP if you are comfortable building you own system.
2. C-FLAs if you want a plug-n-play battery that you are willing to maintain (check and add water) and have access to maintain.
3. GELs for limited maintenance plug-n-play.
B. If weight or volume is an issue then DIY or PnP LFP.
C. For mothership Electric Propulsion (EP) I would use C-FLAs or LFPs.
D. For dinghy EP I would probably use a Firefly if it was a 12v or 24v drive. To recharge I would hookup the battery direct to the house bank for 20-30min to get the big initial recharge amperage required for AGMs then switch to solar. As long as the house bank is significantly larger than the dinghy battery it will not damage the house batteries.

In general I don’t see a place for AGMs on cruising sailboats. If they are significantly discharged on a regular basis (50-60%SoC 2-3x/wk) then you need to be able to recharge them at 0.2C minimum, 0.3-0.4C recommended. For a 400Ahr bank that’s 80A minimum, 120-160A recommended. You can’t provide that kind of power with solar unless you install 1,000W of panels. Even then the power over time is wrong, first thing in the morning the battery needs a big in rush of power at 0.2C+ and the panels are instead ramping up. You could delay hooking the panels to the panels until the approach full output but that requires attention. Realistically you need to run the engine or a generator first thing in the morning and let the solar run all day with a tapering recharge rate. Yes, there are people and boats that have had AGM banks for 6-9yr. My sense is that the have moderate demands and large banks and that SoC rarely (1-2x/mo) goes below 75-80%. In that case save the money and get GELs which will last even longer.