Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Update solar kWh harvested and used in the Med mid August to mid September... Attachment 199834

If I look at that balance your setup is capable of one step further:
change one of the two diesel engines to an electric motor.

Saves a lot diesel and the diesels engine from the lifetime killing cold motoring in/out habours/Marinas/achorages etc. as this can be done with the e-Motor, enough power left in the bank.

the one diesel left is for long motoring passages like a Suez channel or no wind passage.

I was exactly thinking of your setup/configuring it together with Winstons and electric galley when I discovered your thread here on the forum. Most propablly I have 20-30% less consumption too as 60% alone/smaller boat and less power consuming kitchen setup like the Wynn's which I already have with 2 small induction, a contact BBQ grill and small Panasonic Microwave/oven/steamer combo. All boats on my shortlist needs an upgrade anyhow on battery/electric side and I don't like propane plus one less resource you have to chase in off grid locations during my world circum.

I am in the offering process on a FP35 Tobago fully equiped for circum in 2017 (also a 3.5kw diesel genny) with one Yanmar 18hp engine new in 2017 and one engine in need of a rebuild. Seller would do this rebuild or sell as is for lower price.
So I could exactly do that and at the end even safe a bit of $ as I utilize the bank that is there more/maybe add another 400AH. A 10kw electric motor mounted on existing sail drive for the FP35 would be the right solution I was told by a vendor doing that. I would get 8x 700AH cells and make a 24V/700AH bank.
so 5600$ instead 4000$, means +1600$ for batteries, another 500$ for 24Vto12V converters/install stuff and approx 6000$ for the plug&play emotor incl all needed to install. Install myself. Seller would sell 10k$ less with shot engine as is.

What do you and others think of that step further?

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

If I look at that balance your setup is capable of one step further:
change one of the two diesel engines to an electric motor.

Saves a lot diesel and the diesels engine from the lifetime killing cold motoring in/out habours/Marinas/achorages etc. as this can be done with the e-Motor, enough power left in the bank.

the one diesel left is for long motoring passages like a Suez channel or no wind passage.

I was exactly thinking of your setup/configuring it together with Winstons and electric galley when I discovered your thread here on the forum. Most propablly I have 20-30% less consumption too as 60% alone/smaller boat and less power consuming kitchen setup like the Wynn's which I already have with 2 small induction, a contact BBQ grill and small Panasonic Microwave/oven/steamer combo. All boats on my shortlist needs an upgrade anyhow on battery/electric side and I don't like propane plus one less resource you have to chase in off grid locations during my world circum.

I am in the offering process on a FP35 Tobago fully equiped for circum in 2017 (also a 3.5kw diesel genny) with one Yanmar 18hp engine new in 2017 and one engine in need of a rebuild. Seller would do this rebuild or sell as is for lower price.
So I could exactly do that and at the end even safe a bit of $ as I utilize the bank that is there more/maybe add another 400AH. A 10kw electric motor mounted on existing sail drive for the FP35 would be the right solution I was told by a vendor doing that. I would get 8x 700AH cells and make a 24V/700AH bank.
so 5600$ instead 4000$, means +1600$ for batteries, another 500$ for 24Vto12V converters/install stuff and approx 6000$ for the plug&play emotor incl all needed to install. Install myself. Seller would sell 10k$ less with shot engine as is.

What do you and others think of that step further?

I am happy having two working diesel engines and I would by no means go for electric propulsion. But YMMV. My Setup is right for the intendet purpose, I do not have excess capacities neither in energy generation nor on storage, so electric propulsion is not on the list and never will be. A Diesel engine is so much better in driving a boat ans dte diesel tanks are so much more efficient in storing the required energy, so there is no alternative there yet.

Maybe one day we will have a nuclear reactor on board, then yes, but batteries and solar or wind generators are nonsense for collecting energy for propulsion, also the capacities of the batteries are ridiculously small. My Battery of 1000Ah is equivalent to 2l of diesel fuel, and I have 400l, so I would need 200 times of my setup to have the equivalent power and range.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

...My Battery of 1000Ah is equivalent to 2l of diesel fuel, and I have 400l, so I would need 200 times of my setup to have the equivalent power and range.

This from a member that has gone all electric galley, has an awesome solar setup, and can run for days or more without any generator, etc.

It's a good reminder that Yes, go for this type of solution, but Yes also still be realistic and practical.

@CatNewBee, I often refer people to this thread and I will continue to do so, especially because of this "Yes + Common Sense" approach.

I'm planning to mimic your basic concept in the future, but Yes I too will still have a backup ICE. Like your system, with the right planning it will be used minimally, but if necessary it will still be available at all times, even when there is no sun, no wind, as well as when the boat is at anchor without shore power or hydrogenerator input.

THANKS again for posting real, practical info, not pipe dreams

[CatPeople]

I have a Lagoon 450S with 12V AGM and am considering converting it to LFP. I am not an electrical engineer, but have a generally good understanding of much of what the project would include. One question I have is what are the pros & cons of having a 24V LFP bank (instead of 12V), with a 24 to 12 V DC/DC converter. This way "upstream" of the batteries I have smaller power cables to an inverter/charger, less heat, less weight, etc. "Downstream" of the DC/DC the 12V system remains exactly the same. I know one con is more cost and another electrical item that could break down (e.g. for the DC/DC converter). As a DIY job, I am intimidated about removing the existing too small wiring and replacing it with heavy and stiff power cables through the hard to access parts of this boat. If I could preserve existing wiring to the extent possible I think that helps me. The current setup on this Lagoon is 6 @ 140 AH AGM with a 40 and 60 amp Cristec chargers. Would like to add >900 AH LFP, 1200 W solar and a Victron Quatro inverter/charger. We use 400-500 AH of 12VDC per day. Appreciate your thoughts and opinions.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by CatPeople

I have a Lagoon 450S with 12V AGM and am considering converting it to LFP. I am not an electrical engineer, but have a generally good understanding of much of what the project would include. One question I have is what are the pros & cons of having a 24V LFP bank (instead of 12V), with a 24 to 12 V DC/DC converter. This way "upstream" of the batteries I have smaller power cables to an inverter/charger, less heat, less weight, etc. "Downstream" of the DC/DC the 12V system remains exactly the same. I know one con is more cost and another electrical item that could break down (e.g. for the DC/DC converter). As a DIY job, I am intimidated about removing the existing too small wiring and replacing it with heavy and stiff power cables through the hard to access parts of this boat. If I could preserve existing wiring to the extent possible I think that helps me. The current setup on this Lagoon is 6 @ 140 AH AGM with a 40 and 60 amp Cristec chargers. Would like to add >900 AH LFP, 1200 W solar and a Victron Quatro inverter/charger. We use 400-500 AH of 12VDC per day. Appreciate your thoughts and opinions.

A 24V setup in a boat designed for 12V means a LOT of changes, not only a DC/DC converter to 12V. You need 24V charge sources or DC/DC 12 to 24V converter capable of high current transfers and 24V to 12V converter for high currents too (e. g. for the winches, windlass etc.)

If you stay at 12V you can keep all cabling and devices as is and add only the thick cables to the inverter, keeping it as close as possible to the battery.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

A 24V setup in a boat designed for 12V means a LOT of changes, not only a DC/DC converter to 12V. You need 24V charge sources or DC/DC 12 to 24V converter capable of high current transfers and 24V to 12V converter for high currents too (e. g. for the winches, windlass etc.)

If you stay at 12V you can keep all cabling and devices as is and add only the thick cables to the inverter, keeping it as close as possible to the battery.

Yes and No.
The first question is about the Lithium battery: Do you wanna use off shelf or DIY and whats the total KWH you are planing => this gives you what you need for charging and overall size of your whole electric installation like fuses/chargers/cables/BMS.....

Main reason to go 24V is when DIY and using Tesla or Nissan Leaf battery packs, cannot get more KWH per buck and YES they can made run savely on a boat. They simply don't come in 12V.
2nd if you get 11KWH or even 15.9kwh bank (thats equivalent to 2 or 3 Tesla modules) in 12V the current that runs then is enourmous and needs a massiv upgrade everywhere with lots of losses due to heat&resistance. In a 24V system its much lower and you can get for small money some serious heavy duty truck stuff as 24V is standard there. to run a 24V/100A alternator is easy peasy and optimal for 11KWH bank but a 12V 200A is freaking expensive and if you are lucky it delivers 140A in reality and eats 7-8hp of your engine. The truck one delivers real 24V 60A, needs 5hp and will cost 1/2 till 1/3 of a 12V 200A alternator.

Second it depends on the overall concept:
a) Is 24V gear used as is or all need to be new anyhow (old/broken...) or to use existing smaller cables (run higher >8kwh banks off the existing 12V cabling) plus some power hungry gear in 110V/220V
b) everything you can and is somehow power hungry runs on 110V/220V, water maker, full electric galley, fridges, freezers....and the normal low power equipment stuff like ploter, autopilot.... runs via 24V to 12V inverters (they are cheap and 95% efficent).
c) a lot gear and majority of your gear is 12V and some high power in 220V occasionally, typically water maker/AC

third what are your main recharge sources for min. 80A charge current, main is:
I) is a huge solar array, well real 1200W solar panels need a lot space (is that possible on your boat) and the areas your mostly in have enough sun hours?
II) a diesel genny
III) engine alternators
IV) 2-3 wind gens or small solar with 1 Wind gen

This combined:
>11kwh bank and a) or b) and I) or III) ts highly recommended to go 24V
<8kwh bank and c) and II) or IV) only 12 V makes sense with a small genny like Honda to run 110/220V of it

between 8KWH and 11KWH it mostly depends on your existing installation and what and why do you want to change. And do you wanna change it in 1 go or step by step phasing out eg. old wet lead acid against Lipo to save weight and get highler lifetime and reliablity.

On a 45ft cat you have space for solar, need a > 11kwh house bank to live comfortly with all the gear like several AC units the 24V system if you exchange in 1 go is best.

For a 12V > 11 kwh bank you need to exchange or get a 2nd unit like chargers/BMS/inverter anyhow to deal with the resulting high currents and not only bigger cables.

But if you have already a big 12V genny in good condition on that delivers 12V as your main charge source then you want to keep that and bit the bullet of bigger cables and higher losses at 12V.



But if your goal is just to just phase out the existing AGM bank, then eg. 4x400AH Winston or calb cells additionally and run them parallel to your existing AGM bank and stick 2 or 3 additional 360W solar moduls on. Inverter and high current draw then off the Winston, rest off AGM. If AGM dead get another 4 Winstons/Calb and you can still decide if a 8x400AH 24V bank or a 4+4x400AH 12V bank.

[CatPeople]

Thanks CatNewBee and Captain Rivet for the replies. This boat has a 13.5 kVA generator on board to recharge the 840 AH AGM nameplate bank (useable capacity more like 400 AH @ 12 VDC). The factory install includes two Cristec chargers; one is 40 amp and the other 60 amp, and a separate 2200 watt inverter (120 VAC system). These chargers are too small and the genset has to be run for 5+ hours to fully top off the batteries. I would like to change them out for LFP, replace the existing chargers and inverter with a combination unit (e.g. Quatro), and add a solar arch. This will save thousands of dollars in diesel a year. One thing I am not trying to do with the system (at least not yet) is provide DC to AC power for high power consumption loads such as water heater, air con, etc. My main goal is to have enough useable battery capacity to operate our house loads and to minimize reliance on diesel.

I was thinking about using a 24 VDC LFP battery bank, and 24 VDC inverter/charger, and then using 24/12 DC/DC converters to power the house loads for the reasons in the earlier post. Looking at Victron’s Orion line of DC/DC chargers as an example, the most powerful unit is 70 amps continuous, so I will probably need at least 2 of these in parallel for the house loads. The converter units themselves are not very big (70 amp unit is 65x88x195 mm and 0.9 kg) and 92% efficient. Quite honestly I neglected to include the electric winches in my thoughts (thanks CatNewBee for pointing that out), so I will need at least 2 more DC/DC units to supply them. I do not know what the current draw is through these motors, but the breakers range from 80 to 135 amps at 12 VDC. So two parallel 70 amp units would service the winch bank (and I would not be able to run more than one winch at a time under full load – but there is hardly a scenario where that is needed.) In addition, the windlass can draw up to 150 amps under full load, so that means more converters. Now I see why CatNewBee is saying that the complexity is going up, not to mention finding locations to mount all of these converters.

Sounds like the key to a successful 12 V battery bank system is to co-locate the inverter/charger and battery bank close together to minimize cable length and diameter as suggested in this thread. In the existing factory install the 60 & 40 amp chargers are located in the stbd engine room and a cable run of perhaps 3 meters or more connects them to the 12 V bank located under the aft berth. I will see about locating them under the berth (I saw CatNewBee’s side-view layout sketch).

The hardest part about getting started on this project is reverse-engineering Lagoon’s system. They provide very general circuit drawings but there is no detailed information (e.g. such as cable specifications, run lengths, etc). So it is up to the owners to reverse engineer and document the system. Once the existing system is fully understood, only then can one figure out how to adapt it to a more capable LFP system.

[rom]

IMHO mixing 12V & 24V is very complicated and not worth it for you as you have a genny and do not intend (yet) to supply heavy VAC loads from the inverter. I would trash the cristec chargerS and the inverter, and install a 3kW quattro next to the batteries. You will not be able to charge the start batteries anymore but the alternators are probably enough for the task. Well ..actually you may use the secondary charger output of the quattro and connect the two start batt together.

[CatNewBee]

Stay with 12V, it is much easier. A 5000 Quattro or Multiplus has a 220A 12V charger built in, effectively you can charge with 180..200A continously plus about 80A from the two Cristek's gives you 280A charge current, around 3.8kW load on the genny or shore power (220V 18A).
You need to configure a power limit setting in Europe shore connection below 16A to not trip the fuse!

Really, buy the proper wires instead of all those dc/dc units, much better and no need to change anything on the 12V installation.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Stay with 12V, it is much easier. A 5000 Quattro or Multiplus has a 220A 12V charger built in, effectively you can charge with 180..200A continously plus about 80A from the two Cristek's gives you 280A charge current, around 3.8kW load on the genny or shore power (220V 18A).
You need to configure a power limit setting in Europe shore connection below 16A to not trip the fuse!

Really, buy the proper wires instead of all those dc/dc units, much better and no need to change anything on the 12V installation.

agree with you on all points, in his config, usage and final setup/goal it doesn't make any sense to go to 24V LFP.

And its not really a problem to put bigger cable in, simply solder or crimp the old and thicker new together and push the bigger with old one through, cut the old on off after the joint and job done. Just replace the cable one by one. simple, easy and manageable without know how/reengeneering of the whole setup.



I would get 4xWinston 400AH and keep your AGM house bank additional, rest like CatNewBee suggests. When your AGM bank is trash then add another 4x400AH winston. I think the quattro can handle this 2 banks but not 100% sure.

Like this you can later switch to 24V if you have to replace other 12V gear too like winches...additionally lower costs if one cell breaks/get weak its just 400$ for a new one. This is most likely the 1st cell in a 12V block of 4 as it gets the most "stress".

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I am happy having two working diesel engines and I would by no means go for electric propulsion. But YMMV. My Setup is right for the intendet purpose, I do not have excess capacities neither in energy generation nor on storage, so electric propulsion is not on the list and never will be. A Diesel engine is so much better in driving a boat ans dte diesel tanks are so much more efficient in storing the required energy, so there is no alternative there yet.

Maybe one day we will have a nuclear reactor on board, then yes, but batteries and solar or wind generators are nonsense for collecting energy for propulsion, also the capacities of the batteries are ridiculously small. My Battery of 1000Ah is equivalent to 2l of diesel fuel, and I have 400l, so I would need 200 times of my setup to have the equivalent power and range.

I would not see myself go full electric in the next 10 years too.
But when one of your diesel dies/about to die or you buy a cat with 1 engine shot/need of a overhaul or you can sell one of your engines used for a good price its worth considering this option. I am in final negotiation phase on a 35 FP with one engine new and one shot and could get it with overhauled engine or as is with shot for 8 till 12K$ lower. So I am evaluating in detail this approach and just wanna share my findings/research.

A 10kw e-motor for existing yanmar SD10 saildrive is 6.5k$, so inline or cheaper then extensive overhaul on a 2GM20 and in my case add 2000 or 3000$ for bigger Lithium bank (get a new one anyhow) to have more overhead/reserve. I could get away whats planned anyhow (if the diesel gets an overhaul, so 2 diesel) but that 2000$ gives me hopefully the opportunity to use the emotor more and safe at the end on diesel&maintenance costs.

Like this you combine the advantages of both world and have one diesel which still gives you the full range of the 400l tank and you have one emotor, doing all the work that otherwise shorting the life of the diesel significantly & the costs for fixing that and the diesel you need for that too. And this for 0 $ extra as you utilize whats allready there more efficently.

Also Emotor has hardly any service costs. Like this I am sure in practise you can extend the total range by 100nm further before needing to refuel.



With the charts/SOCs you provided you definitly have enough power in 95% the cases for just motoring in/out of habour/mooring/anker spot which equals to max. 3nm daily under electric engine, thats less then -5% SOC state/of your capacity.

And in 30% you that charts/SOC shows you have so much capacity left that you could run the emotor silently to emotor sail and add 1 or 2 extra kn during a low wind day passage or no wind situations running the diesel on lower RPM and add that 1 or 2kn with the emotor.
With a 10KW engine you can motor 12-18NM (depending on seastage) with 4-5kn on a 6.5kwh bank, so using roughly 4kwh. Thats what friends average on their 45ft mono with this setup.


Regarding safety/backup:

With one diesel engine you still have the full range with 400l diesel but in emergency you even have extra 25nm with the 2nd electric engine when using the whole bank for propulsion and eat cold food/switch all of that is not really need for survival, eg get demasted in the middle of a long passage. Ok if then one diesel breaks you just have the emotor and not the range. but whats the likelyhood that this both happens at the same time?

On the other hand that bank is self sufficent via solar to recharge so with wisely combining the 2 and battery additional recharching through 1 engine while motoring you can get 100nm additional range for sure...or charge, 25nm motoring, charge, 25nm motoring....yes takes long but in survival mode a very good option to have no sails and no diesel.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

I would not see myself go full electric in the next 10 years too.
But when one of your diesel dies/about to die or you buy a cat with 1 engine shot/need of a overhaul or you can sell one of your engines used for a good price its worth considering this option. I am in final negotiation phase on a 35 FP with one engine new and one shot and could get it with overhauled engine or as is with shot for 8 till 12K$ lower. So I am evaluating in detail this approach and just wanna share my findings/research.

A 10kw e-motor for existing yanmar SD10 saildrive is 6.5k$, so inline or cheaper then extensive overhaul on a 2GM20 and in my case add 2000 or 3000$ for bigger Lithium bank (get a new one anyhow) to have more overhead/reserve. I could get away whats planned anyhow (if the diesel gets an overhaul, so 2 diesel) but that 2000$ gives me hopefully the opportunity to use the emotor more and safe at the end on diesel&maintenance costs.

Like this you combine the advantages of both world and have one diesel which still gives you the full range of the 400l tank and you have one emotor, doing all the work that otherwise shorting the life of the diesel significantly & the costs for fixing that and the diesel you need for that too. And this for 0 $ extra as you utilize whats allready there more efficently.

Also Emotor has hardly any service costs. Like this I am sure in practise you can extend the total range by 100nm further before needing to refuel.



With the charts/SOCs you provided you definitly have enough power in 95% the cases for just motoring in/out of habour/mooring/anker spot which equals to max. 3nm daily under electric engine, thats less then -5% SOC state/of your capacity.

And in 30% you that charts/SOC shows you have so much capacity left that you could run the emotor silently to emotor sail and add 1 or 2 extra kn during a low wind day passage or no wind situations running the diesel on lower RPM and add that 1 or 2kn with the emotor.
With a 10KW engine you can motor 12-18NM (depending on seastage) with 4-5kn on a 6.5kwh bank, so using roughly 4kwh. Thats what friends average on their 45ft mono with this setup.


Regarding safety/backup:

With one diesel engine you still have the full range with 400l diesel but in emergency you even have extra 25nm with the 2nd electric engine when using the whole bank for propulsion and eat cold food/switch all of that is not really need for survival, eg get demasted in the middle of a long passage. Ok if then one diesel breaks you just have the emotor and not the range. but whats the likelyhood that this both happens at the same time?

On the other hand that bank is self sufficent via solar to recharge so with wisely combining the 2 and battery additional recharching through 1 engine while motoring you can get 100nm additional range for sure...or charge, 25nm motoring, charge, 25nm motoring....yes takes long but in survival mode a very good option to have no sails and no diesel.

as much as you are trying to push the electric conversion are you sure your not a vendor ?
As to doing that on your boat well your boat your choice.

[CatNewBee]

buy a Lagoon 421 Hybridwith electric motors. there is a reason why only few survived, most have been converted back to real diesel engines.

Maybe you can get the replaced electric and electronic stuff 2nd hand cheap.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by newhaul

as much as you are trying to push the electric conversion are you sure your not a vendor ?
As to doing that on your boat well your boat your choice.

I am no vendor or supporting one. I am simply in the market of buying a small catamaran for a world cirumnavigation and will go like CatNewBee fully electric (eg galley) and with Solar&wind as main charge source. Limiting the resources I need to buy and stock. And because the cat is small, weight for all the gear plays a big role and fuel tanks are not super big...


I just came across 3 small cats that fit my book and all had one good and one bad engine.
And I am flying to corfu tommorrow to look&testsail for 3 days Nr. 2 on my short list, again one engine new with 70h and one shot that needs a serious rebuild.

Having 11-15KWH bank and using 5kwh in average, thats sized for 3 days without any recharge for long distance. But If I approaching a habour/anchorage I don't need that backup anymore and use it to emotor and safe diesel and engine hours.
Sounds a good solution but nearly no one has it, which makes me curious.
From my experience if something like this looks as favourable to me and not many sailors out there have it, there is a big hickup somewhere I don't think about or lacking knowledge/experience to be able to discover it.

So I need the vast and always helpful experience of the forum here to figure out what's the hickup is....or after thoughts and feedback here I see its just quite new thing and I am willing to be the guiniepig to try it out.

[CatNewBee]

OK, got your point.

Been sailing for 6 months the Med, got only once in a marina (for wintering), Marinas are expensive during high season with rates from 120 to 180 EUR per night. Harbors range from 0 (in Greece) to 80+ EUR, often without power and water on the dock, mooring balls are between 30...150 EUR per night.

Often power and water are sometimes included, sometimes you need a transponder and pay per usage of kWh and liter.

Anchoring is almost free, with some exceptions in Croatia, where you can get charged about up to 20 EUR per night.

So you rarely approach a dock or marina, except you need to leave the vessel for a longer period for exploring the land or flying home. Often you only dock for a short time for clearing in, getting some fuel or get a complimentary pump out.

For this rare occasions where you are on a dock with power you may charge from shore, but most of the time you don't.

Maybe you can sail into an anchorage to the spot and use your engines only for setting and lifting the anchor and recharge the battery by solar.

Regarding solar. It works great if you are at anchor and lucky with the wind and your panels are all day long unshaded by the mast, boom or rigging . When sailing, the instruments, power winches and hydraulic autopilot will help drain the battery, while the sails and sheets will partly shade the panels, so recharging will be more difficult. On passages the solar is barely enough to keep up with the consumption and make water. There is no excess energy for recharging for propulsion. After a passage sometimes it takes several days to get back to 100% on water and energy.

Your idea sounds good, but it is not how we use to sail, it simply makes no sense for us. Even we tried to sail as much as possible, we motored about 30% of the distance due to unfavorable conditions or necessities like passing the Corinth canal (7kn minimum speed requires motoring with both engines) or fighting strong currents in the Strait of Messina or beating to the wind. The Med is very unreliable regarding wind for sailing in contrast to the Caribbean sea.

One of our diesel failed during the summer, one air blower was defective blowing the fuse that caused stopping charging, beeping while the engine runs and prevents firing up the engine again due to disconnected start battery by the fuse (it is used for the panel with the start button too).

In a stress situation you cannot start debugging and troubleshooting, you are happy, the other one works. If you have only one diesel and a short range electric engine you are screwed and have to fix it under way.

But good luck with your project!

Keep the diesel in a storage on land, you may need it later.