Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Thanks again for more info. I have similar thoughts and for a future boat would like in general to reduce and protect as much as possible the underwater elements of the boat.

There just seems to be so much debris out in the water now unfortunately, even if it is from nature - many boats have been having problems with sargasso weed too in recent years.

Yes the hydrogenerators always seem great until you really drill down into the numbers and find that maybe the cost vs benefit isn't as expected.

And on top of all of this it still makes sense to have some form of genset capacity anyway as a backup, even if it's big alternators on the propulsion engines, so why not just use this backup as part of the overall package in the first place.

I think it's sometimes possible to end up with too much equipment, trying to account for all the niche situations in the 'best' way, but after spending more and adding more weight too.

There needs to be a middle balance somewhere.

Yes, the best device is always the most versatile one. That is a diesel generator, it runs on the same fuel as the engines (no extra fuel, no extra wear & tear on the engines), it produces a lot of AC shore power (7kVA), it can be used regardless of daylight, weather, wind, movement of the boat, as long as it is in the water (cooling), for charging you can use any installed shore charger with it.

With LiFeYPO4, a Quattro 12-5000-220 100-100 you can charge at 220A, additional legacy shore chargers charge the start batteries and the house battery, so another 40..60A. You can charge 1000Ah in 4h with it.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Yes, the best device is always the most versatile one.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

A short update on our ocean crossing....

The first Day we had to motorsail, to get around the island, then we had about 8...18kn from stern, so we made some progress between 6 and 8kn SOG. After we've got out of the shade from the Canaries islands, we had some good NE wind 16..20kn, and could stay on Parasailor for 4 days, then the wind shifted to NNE and we switched back to Code0 and main, and during the night to Genoa and Main, we had some squals with windshifts and gust to 26kn. On day 4 the impeller of the genny gave up and needed to be replaced - the only repair we had to make under way.

On day 7 and 8,the wind shifted further N, so we had only 70% Genoa and Reef2 in the main, making 7..8kn SOG, wind 24..30kn NNE (beam reach), also long waves of 3m from the side, 20..24°C, and squals with some light showers kept us busy, then the weather settled, wind 21...12kn easterly, back to Code0 and Main with 1 reef.

Then we reached the duldrums, the weather changed, the low front passed by and we had only 4..6kn Wind, we used some squalls to make some distance, but finally gave up in the evening, set the anchor light and all alarms on RADAR and AIS and got the sails down, had a great sleep. We have not seen any vessel during the last 9 days. This repeated 4 more days, we baked christmas cookies, had a movie night with popcorn in the cockpit with the beamer, cooked, baked, fished, swam in the middle of the calm ocean... Like a Christmas vacation at anchor.

Finally the easterly trades come slowly back. It started with Northerlies, so Code0 and main with 6..12kn TWS at the beam, what moved us slowly at 5..6kn SOG, the wind increased the following days to 12..15kn N, sowe made some progress at 6..7kn. Easy sailing, 3m waves NE, so kind of following seas. We had this for another week to day 20, we sailed and fished, no other boats around, sunshine and some clouds, 26..28°C, nice sun rises and sunsets, some squalls with rainbows, very long smooth waves about 1.5m, easy going.

The last 4 days we were back on Parasailor, trade winds 12.. 20kn dead downwind running at 6..8kn SOG, 25..28°C, small squalls.

After 24 days at sea we arrived in the night / early morning in St. Martin, dropped the anchor and relaxed.

During the whole passage we saw 4 vessel on AIS, 2 of them in sight, most during the last 200nm. We caught a Yellofin tuna, a Skip jack Tuna and 5 Mahi Mahi, all fish above 1m in size, we had great sushi, tuna steaks and Mahi meals. We sailed about 2800nm and motored only for 7h, we had to run the generator frequently to recharge the batteries, make water and hot water, cook and bake etc. It was often either overcast or the sails shaded the solar panels, so we cannot rely on solar, also the crew was really not in water saving mood, we had our daily hot showers and produced a mess in the galley to fight boredom, created fancy meals, baked cakes and cookies, variations of bread and on and on, run the washing machine and whatever... We run the watermaker in total for 63.5h, producing 6350l of fresh water for the crossing or 265l per day. Other boats make the whole passage with 300l of fresh water...

We run a 4h watch schedule, so everybody was 2 times per day on watch and had a chance of an continous 8 hours sleep (3 person), so we were not exhausted at all after the 24 days, it was just like normal sailing.

Great lazy passage, as we wanted it.

Easy check-in too, I have been in contact with the authorities prior departure and after arrival, the copy of the Zarpe from Gran Canaria as proof of sea time, the 24 days at sea in an bio-secure environment and a declaration of the captain, that no crew showed any symptoms on passage was sufficient to allow us on land, the customs clearing on a (EU) French island comming from EU (Canaries) was just filling out a form on a computer in the chandlery. We also made a daily temperature log during the passage - just in case they wanted more details on our health status, so all was fine and no C19 tests or quarantine required upon arrival.

Some statistics
- 24 days at sea from Las Palmas to Saint Martin,
- 7h on the engines (14l Diesel) for 2800nm,
- 47.6h in total on the Onan generator (94l Diesel) - so a total of
- 108l diesel for the whole passage or 4.5l/day.
- genny used about 2h/day to charge 500Ah, make water, hot water

Having a partly bored crew, the passage turned in a cooking and baking tournament and having all electric galley with all the toys to play, that meant a huge total consumption of 327kWh on the passage,

- 91kWh comming from solar
- Solar yelded in average 3.8kWh/day, not too bad.
- 236kWh from the generator, that produced in average over 5kW - quite efficiently.

- 63.5h on watermaker in total
- produced and used 6350l of fresh water for showers, dishes, laundry, toilets.
- average water consumption 265l/day,
- total energy for water making about 63kWh.

- Freezer and 2 fridges consumed (18..23A) about 6.5kWh during the passage
- instruments, autopilot, vhf, radar..., maybe another 6kWh.
- Hot Water (1.2kW element, 1h/day) accounted for about 30kWh,
- 220kWh were used on laundry, induction cooking, baking every day fresh bread, baking christmas cookies, cakes, entertainment...

Crew has a weight problem after the passage and needs some exercise... [emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]



Attachment 231761

didn't relalize you where in Las Palmas in january. missed that. Would have sailed over from Fuerteventura to meat you in person and have a look at your Lithium install. congrats, sounds like our crossing in 2018 when delivering a FP47 sanoa full with all the gear...we just didn't have this much solar, infact non. And just AGM batteries...So the genny was running each day min. 8h and eating all our diesel. so we had to push it with the dingy into jolly habour in Antigua as we didn't had one drop of the 1200l diesel left. Also had 6 days dead calm, even no current and ocean flat like a mirror. Swiming in the open ocean, after 30min the cat had moved less then 50cm away from me... why did you use the code 0 instead of the parasailor? Due to parasailors description it should also work in the angles the code 0 does. Do you think, the solar output underway could be improved If your solar panels could be tilted backwards, so they have a better angle if sun comes from angles or directly of the stern? Bought a MAHE 36 eveolution and thinking if i setup the solar panels on the davits to be able to be tilted backwards for exactly that reason.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

didn't relalize you where in Las Palmas in january. missed that. Would have sailed over from Fuerteventura to meat you in person and have a look at your Lithium install. congrats, sounds like our crossing in 2018 when delivering a FP47 sanoa full with all the gear...we just didn't have this much solar, infact non. And just AGM batteries...So the genny was running each day min. 8h and eating all our diesel. so we had to push it with the dingy into jolly habour in Antigua as we didn't had one drop of the 1200l diesel left. Also had 6 days dead calm, even no current and ocean flat like a mirror. Swiming in the open ocean, after 30min the cat had moved less then 50cm away from me... why did you use the code 0 instead of the parasailor? Due to parasailors description it should also work in the angles the code 0 does. Do you think, the solar output underway could be improved If your solar panels could be tilted backwards, so they have a better angle if sun comes from angles or directly of the stern? Bought a MAHE 36 eveolution and thinking if i setup the solar panels on the davits to be able to be tilted backwards for exactly that reason.

Code0 is great on AWA60...170, we had parts of the passage to the wind or beam reach AWA90, where the code0 was better, we also sailed wing on wing with Code0 and main for a while on DDW, because the TWS was below 8kn and unstable, and there was swell from the side what made the parasailor not a good choice.

You need at least 6kn to get it inflated and make barely progress then, over 8kn you get 3..4 SOG on PS DDW. Using C0 and Main is easier manageable and better in low wind situations, from TWS 12kn on Parasailor is then better.

To run on PS during the night you need stable wind, you don't want to dose it on the trampoline when it's dark, and you don't want to be woken up by the crew when you rest, so we used to fly it when the weather was good enough, otherwise we used the normal sails, the crew could handle them from the helm if needed.

I also used during the night on my rest time the wind vane mode of the Autopilot, so squalls and wind direction changes did not require sail maneuvers on their watches except they were severe (further reefing required), so they have to wake me up then.

You have your different ressources and you use them when they fit best to get along, a passage is not a spint, it's a marathon, the easier you are going, the less tired you are when something happens.

[CatNewBee]

... If someone's interested in solar output in Saint Martin in the Caribbean Mid February / Mid March, 6.5....8.2kWh / day on 1650Wp.

[jmh2002]

Nice

So no need to run the generator at all? Or how many days between runs to top up?

[CatNewBee]

We run it twice for an hour. on 21th of February and on 10th of March, otherwise all on solar only.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

We run it twice for an hour. on 21th of February and on 10th of March, otherwise all on solar only.

Awesome

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

We run it twice for an hour. on 21th of February and on 10th of March, otherwise all on solar only.

Why did you need to run it at all? Was it some special occasion that needed a lot power or several cloudy days in a row? With 1000Ah you should have 2 days buffer so only 3 days clouds straight should force you to run genn

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Why did you need to run it at all? Was it some special occasion that needed a lot power or several cloudy days in a row? With 1000Ah you should have 2 days buffer so only 3 days clouds straight should force you to run

The week before the 20th was quite cloudy and windy, what caused a lot of sediments in the water of Marigot bay. We didn't run the watermaker for several days, then the situation improved, it was still windy and we moved to Gran Case (next bay north-east), with a much better water quality. So we run the generator for about an hour (getting 300Ah extra) and refilled our fresh water tank - running the watermaker for 5h.

The other day we just used a lot of energy the day before - we had some cruising friends on board - and we've been below 50%SOC the next morning, it was cloudy, so I decided to run the generator for an hour while making water - was not really necessary, as the sun came out in the afternoon and we run into absorption / float.

It is good to run the generator and the engines from time to time anyway to keep the oil lubing them and prevent corrosion inside.

[LeighC]

Hi CNB,
I am interested in your thoughts as I am looking to buy a REC ABMS, I have just replaced my old Invertec invertor with Victron Multiplus 12v 3000watt to join my CALB CA400 LiFeP04 8 yr old batts with a EV Power BMS BCU-PPAK-4S with a Latching relay.
I am asking because I need to update my relay to 400amps do I use another latching relay or go to a NO (normally open) one.
The reason I am asking is I have always been worried about the latching relay staying in its last state if power is lost to the BMS & I get a danger event either HV, LV or delta V cell imbalance event?
Does this concern you?
I have had over the years working with diesel engine protection systems (watchdogs) not switching off when needed (early Murphy systems) that were not failsafe (deadman) we always used NO (series) relays & if we had a broken wire (open circuit) it has to be repaired before the engine started.
Does the REC system you have default to safe system for the batteries if a dangerous voltage condition arises?
Thanks in advance for your help - Leigh- Australia

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by LeighC

Hi CNB,
I am interested in your thoughts as I am looking to buy a REC ABMS, I have just replaced my old Invertec invertor with Victron Multiplus 12v 3000watt to join my CALB CA400 LiFeP04 8 yr old batts with a EV Power BMS BCU-PPAK-4S with a Latching relay.
I am asking because I need to update my relay to 400amps do I use another latching relay or go to a NO (normally open) one.
The reason I am asking is I have always been worried about the latching relay staying in its last state if power is lost to the BMS & I get a danger event either HV, LV or delta V cell imbalance event?
Does this concern you?
I have had over the years working with diesel engine protection systems (watchdogs) not switching off when needed (early Murphy systems) that were not failsafe (deadman) we always used NO (series) relays & if we had a broken wire (open circuit) it has to be repaired before the engine started.
Does the REC system you have default to safe system for the batteries if a dangerous voltage condition arises?
Thanks in advance for your help - Leigh- Australia

OK, what could that event possibly be? I mean, the BMS and the relays are directly powered from the LFP battery, that has always enough power tp operate the logic, even if discharged to the LVP. If there is no power, you have much more trouble than the relay.

A great feature of the ML-RBS 7700 is, you can override it manually, when you use the proposed impulse interface along with the NO/NC contacts of the REC or BMV I described earlier here. You can even use the remote switches to override the BMS from the helm if you want to.

The ML-RBS7713 is an auto-release solenoid, so monostable. It takes a little more power and you can use it directly if you are concerned.

The REC boots in Off mode and turns the busses on, if everything is OK with the cells, the shunt and optionally the CAN BUS. In a failure it turns the busses off depending on the error. As it is always connected to the cells, it is always powered up, but it has an own ON/OFF switch, that would also disconnect the charge- and load bus.

Relays, like all mechanical contacts can fail at some point. They may have a burned coil (unlikely), burned contacts from arcing (high resistance) or welded contacts not opening (always on), they may also have corrosion preventing the contacts to operate. None of this errors can be fixed with an auto-opening relay.

SSR relays have no contact problems, but are more sensitive to voltage or current spikes and some also to polarity, so not really safer.

Also the BMS contacts are internally fused and protected and the fuse may blow on over current.

The BMS is the last line of defense, usually, it boots up and stays on forever as long as the battery has enough power. The charging is done by the controllers in the chargers, the BMS only takes care of the cells and engages in failure situation.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

... If someone's interested in solar output in Saint Martin in the Caribbean Mid February / Mid March, 6.5....8.2kWh / day on 1650Wp. Attachment 234645Attachment 234646

you sorted things out really well with your L 400. Good sailing performance for the level of luxury you have

Noticed you have fully charged 3x on that pic you posted. Do you fully charge intentionally every xx days ?

I have settled down on fully charging 1x per 10 to 15 days. If not sure it was really charged, get it charged fully 2 x in a row. Rest of days let it go up to 13.60V.

[LeighC]

Good to hear from you, I was only thinking if the fuse in the BMS blew or the BMS lost its power for some reason which is properly unlikely. We have a problem with vermin chewing things. My BMS yes I agree has only operated to disconnect on low voltage once in 8 yrs at a 13v LV setting. I can still buy a 400amp latching relay to suit new multi.
Do I buy a Cerbo & connect the REC BMS up to CAN-bus & enable DVCC (Distributed Voltage & Current Control) & let the REC BMS take over the charging algorithms of the Multi-plus what are your thoughts on that please?
I have a BMV712 Smart already also? I like the idea of active BMS & by your posts your works very well.
Thanks for your help- Leigh

[CatNewBee]

Well, I wrote it earlier, I guess. This is a frequent question.

Yes, it is a shiny new world and everything seems to need Internet access to work, IoT is a buzzword, every fridge, water heater, smart plug, light bulb is networked, bluetoothed Or WiFi'd.

I am not a fan of data integration and centralization, not in human life and not in technical systems. I prefer decentralized logic and clear dedicated interfaces.

Yes, you can integrate the REC via CAN Bus and stop charge by cell voltage setting, you can set up a distributed network of REC - CAN - Cerbo - Serial Bus - Quattro, Cerbo - Serial P2P to solar, P2P to BMV etc. and hope for the best. It is easy. But you still have to configure each unit to work properly independently if the data connection fails. You still have to add the solenoids to disconnect the battery if a unit gets rogue and unresponsive. And all this only works for Victron components.

So what is the benefit besides a more difficult wiring and troubleshooting?

I use the systems with their internal logic stand alone, I do have a RaspberryPi running a modified Venus as human interface to see what my stuff is doing. But I dont use DVCC (even if I could). I use 2 wire BMS signals instead of the VEBus to control the Quattro and I don't control the MPPT by data, but the BMS would cut it off if necessary. So it doesn't matter if the Venus/Cerbo works or not, it is not an essential component in my setup. Also it may be beneficial to have different settings on different controllers to fine tune your sources. You may want some to stop earlier, while keep others charging (e. g. for low current balancing)

In the end it is about your preference and your trust. I believe in the resilience of independend systems by avoiding a single point of failure. Of course there are many, but I can override most / all systems easily by a push button, so the captain has the last word and in an emergency there is only a battery from bare cells and the loads.

The last dock crash in simpson bay in Sint Maarten was a good reminder to not always trust computers and give away full control.