Merged LiFeYPO4 1000Ah Winston prismatic cells and all electric galley...

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

or go right away to 8x400AH, gives you the possibility to go 24V and till then in 13V you can have backup as Jedi suggests

Except then both have the same shelf life aging .

[s/v Jedi]

I was in this same dilemma and made the choice to go from 12V house bank to 24V. Now, a couple of years later, I am so happy I did this. Here are the catches:

- you need 24V version of the inverter/charger

- you should really put a 24V motor in the windlass

- you need an additional busbar for the +24V

That’s about it. Yes, you need a different type dc-dc converters but you probably don’t have any yet so cost is the same.

8x Winston 400Ah cells in series is wonderful. Attached the diagram for 24/12V and my battery.

[goboatingnow]

I had a 24v boat. But sourcing replacement parts thar were 24v proved more difficult. This current boat is 12v

[rgleason]

Very neat and clever design and installation. I wish I had room to locate the batteries above the keel, but I would have to build a new fiberglass top to the water tank, reducing capacity.


This installation also requires lots of solar to charge the 24vdc (preferably at 24v so series is needed) and several 12vdc -24vdc chargers or the necessity to change the alternator and regulator to 24vdc and a bunch of other things.


For our small boat it is difficult to fit even equipment for a very simple LFP system in a protected area, and some difficult choices will have to be made, but nice design for a big boat with lots of solar.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Very neat and clever design and installation. I wish I had room to locate the batteries above the keel, but I would have to build a new fiberglass top to the water tank, reducing capacity.


This installation also requires lots of solar to charge the 24vdc (preferably at 24v so series is needed) and several 12vdc -24vdc chargers or the necessity to change the alternator and regulator to 24vdc and a bunch of other things.


For our small boat it is difficult to fit even equipment for a very simple LFP system in a protected area, and some difficult choices will have to be made, but nice design for a big boat with lots of solar.

Most solar panels today can charge a 24V battery with just a single panel, because they are 44-50V output.

Yes, you need a 24V to 12V charger to keep 12V up, but as you can see in the 12V version of this diagram (has it’s own thread), you have these anyway, just a different version: 12V to 12V because the chemistries do not share a compatible charge algorithm.

I find the 24V version superior and the only reason to not go straight to 48V is that for some components there is reduced availability or higher cost involved. I am convinced this will be addressed in the coming years and at some point 48V will become the preferred option.

[rgleason]

Do you have enough solar and are far enough south, such that you do not rely on the alternator at all?

For a very simple LFP system with only 100w-200w of solar, we rely on the alternator if we are on the boat day to day. In that case I still think staying with 12vdc is less expensive and does not require replacing everything (starter, alternator, boat equipment, etc) even with the advantages you mention and the requirement that we use thicker cables.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Do you have enough solar and are far enough south, such that you do not rely on the alternator at all?

For a very simple LFP system with only 100w-200w of solar, we rely on the alternator if we are on the boat day to day. In that case I still think staying with 12vdc is less expensive and does not require replacing everything (starter, alternator, boat equipment, etc) even with the advantages you mention and the requirement that we use thicker cables.

The starter, alternator and “boat equipment” are all the same and unchanged. They are all 12V, please check out the diagram.

The one change I recommend, is the motor in the windlass. This can be done for little cost, especially when you wait for a Black Friday sale on Defender etc., while it is high impact and great return on investment. In some cases, it will even eliminate a battery that was installed forward to address the high power load.
The reason is that current goes down to only 40% of what it was at 12V. This is because of the higher voltage, which doesn’t sag like the LA bank did. With the long cable run, this is a winner.

Solar controllers are double the power at a 24V bank because their maximum output is rated in amps. This is a huge cost saving.
Inverter/chargers like the Victron Multiplus don’t cost extra for 24V models and they run much better. It is these high power applications that favor a higher voltage house bank.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Do you have enough solar and are far enough south, such that you do not rely on the alternator at all?

I forgot your first question

We have 1,875W of solar: 5x LG 375W panels. Our current area is the Bahamas and Florida. The alternator is just a backup power source, as is the diesel genset. We can even run a 40gph watermaker on solar only and occasionally (on days we don’t run the watermaker, don’t bake bread etc.) we can run a 16kBTU A/C unit on solar. The last marina we visited, we didn’t even take shore power.

I know it’s hard to install that much solar on smaller boats, but it is possible: famous Youtube channels show this. In Northern latitudes it becomes difficult in the winters, but in the summers it works surprisingly good.

I will make a diagram for a system primarily using the alternator.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Except then both have the same shelf life aging .

true but if one celll dies, you can reconfigure the house, with 1p4S config not the possible

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I forgot your first question

We have 1,875W of solar: 5x LG 375W panels. Our current area is the Bahamas and Florida. The alternator is just a backup power source, as is the diesel genset. We can even run a 40gph watermaker on solar only and occasionally (on days we don’t run the watermaker, don’t bake bread etc.) we can run a 16kBTU A/C unit on solar. The last marina we visited, we didn’t even take shore power.

I know it’s hard to install that much solar on smaller boats, but it is possible: famous Youtube channels show this. In Northern latitudes it becomes difficult in the winters, but in the summers it works surprisingly good.

I will make a diagram for a system primarily using the alternator.

good setup, the 375W LG are great panels.

just wondering why not more sailors install bifacial solar panels.
They work with diffusion light which you have plenty at sea and are less prone to shading plus kick earlier in, fade out later. a real game changer., especially the harvest on passage.went from the good Panasonic with 4x 325W to 3x 375W jongly bifacial...I regularly see 450W from one panel. very early or late I only see around 75W from one which is clearly the backside producing from water Reflexions, with regular panels nothing as angle to small for topside. the effective output per day is around 40% higher then with panasonic for the same total wp. And on passage +70%. panels are installed on davits parallel to the water surface, no possibility to tilt, you could improve harvest quite a bit by tilting them. to complex for me.
Total wp is not important, it's important what the panels really deliver under which conditions.
90 degrees noon sun straight all panels do good but what's at 40 degrees, shade,low light...

[WizClark]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

No doubt the REC new 12v Active BMS , ( active balancing ) with Victron CAN compatibility ( which is effectively NMEA2000) and integration with the wakespeed alternator controller is a standard bearer for mobile LFP systems. And good value to boot.

I recently add 2x wakespeed controling 110a alternators (one each hull) to my REC-Victron-Winston power setup. I can confirm that the Wakespeed integrate beautifully. Taking charging instructions direct from REC ABMS, as do the 6x Victron MPPT's. The alts are large-frame Mastervolt. With the previous MV Alpha charge controllers would see limited output. Tried reprogramming to improve, hit BMS disconnect and fried diodes in one alt. Now with Wakespeed get essentially 50% output at idle and then Full outut anytime Lithium needs any charging. Have set to de-rate at 100 deg C but have not hit this in 6 mo cruising Fiji-Vanuatu.

I gleaned a lot of info from this thread. Thanks CNB! Now I am working on Monitoring-control using Victron-SignalK-Node-Red-HomeAssistant-ESPHome software stack and Rpi-ESP microcontrollers. Automations like turning on anchor light when solar output drops under 50w. Fun stuff!

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by WizClark

I recently add 2x wakespeed controling 110a alternators (one each hull) to my REC-Victron-Winston power setup. I can confirm that the Wakespeed integrate beautifully. Taking charging instructions direct from REC ABMS, as do the 6x Victron MPPT's. The alts are large-frame Mastervolt. With the previous MV Alpha charge controllers would see limited output. Tried reprogramming to improve, hit BMS disconnect and fried diodes in one alt. Now with Wakespeed get essentially 50% output at idle and then Full outut anytime Lithium needs any charging. Have set to de-rate at 100 deg C but have not hit this in 6 mo cruising Fiji-Vanuatu.

I gleaned a lot of info from this thread. Thanks CNB! Now I am working on Monitoring-control using Victron-SignalK-Node-Red-HomeAssistant-ESPHome software stack and Rpi-ESP microcontrollers. Automations like turning on anchor light when solar output drops under 50w. Fun stuff!

Which large case 110A alts that also delivers 110A this makes sense as the wakespeed are very expensive.
But majority has 90 till 130A standard alternator, that under full load deliver 50-70A. And for that output a wakespeed is simply too expensive as you also have to count to modify the belt drive too as running them under this high load this puts a lot stress on the belt. Here a DC-to-DC charger or working with Victron argofet is adequate solution
if you have the 115A Mitsubishi alt which is standard on D1 and D2 Volvos, small yanmars and plenty others the VMR 200 from nordkyn is a much cheaper alternative to the wakespeed.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The starter, alternator and “boat equipment” are all the same and unchanged. They are all 12V, please check out the diagram.

The one change I recommend, is the motor in the windlass. This can be done for little cost, especially when you wait for a Black Friday sale on Defender etc., while it is high impact and great return on investment. In some cases, it will even eliminate a battery that was installed forward to address the high power load.
The reason is that current goes down to only 40% of what it was at 12V. This is because of the higher voltage, which doesn’t sag like the LA bank did. With the long cable run, this is a winner.

Solar controllers are double the power at a 24V bank because their maximum output is rated in amps. This is a huge cost saving.
Inverter/chargers like the Victron Multiplus don’t cost extra for 24V models and they run much better. It is these high power applications that favor a higher voltage house bank.

I like that setup the More i see it…first it was too much conversions but you really pointed out what makes sense.
The only very negative point is you can’t use your 24V house to emergency start if the 12V starter battery is dead because you have 12V starter…

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I was in this same dilemma and made the choice to go from 12V house bank to 24V. Now, a couple of years later, I am so happy I did this. Here are the catches:

- you need 24V version of the inverter/charger

- you should really put a 24V motor in the windlass

- you need an additional busbar for the +24V

That’s about it. Yes, you need a different type dc-dc converters but you probably don’t have any yet so cost is the same.

8x Winston 400Ah cells in series is wonderful. Attached the diagram for 24/12V and my battery.

You are running 2 independent 1p4S 12V battery with its BMS for 12V and put that them in series, correct?
But you charge via 24V Victron MPPT and DC tonDC Charger, doesn‘t that interfere with 12V BMS?

If correct You could simplfy that even more by charge each of the 12V LFP of the 12V alternators or 12V DC to DC chargers so you can actually use the house as emergency starter. I eg have all that in 12V already but could really use 24V for my inverter as 5kw in 12V is massive
The additional 24V busbar and 24V windlass motor makes absolute sense.
My only huge draws are those 2. and to get a 24V 5kw Multiplus inverter is easy and cost effective while a 5kw Quattro breaks the bank.

[WizClark]

Re: Wakespeed -

I am simply providing the results that I realized with my actual setup. I think the BMS controlling the alternators solves a number of potential issues discussed in this thread, while maximizing the output. As I got a lot out of this thread from reports on actual installs, I'm just trying to give back a little info. I can't comment on it's adequacy or percieved expense which I imagine varies significantly for individuals.