Modern lithium setup for boats

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Please re-read my OP of this thread. For your setup you use 240V units and the first time 120V appears is after the Auto transformer(s). At 240V you only have L1 and L2, no neutral. From the genset you only take L1 and L2 240V. Same for shore power; you can take 120V and let the isolation transformer make 240 from that.

That’s the proper way of doing this for higher power. For your distribution you get two legs again as the auto transformer creates a new Neutral for L1 and L2. It’s in the diagram I posted

That would fix the generator balancing concern. But it still leaves the limitation with 30A shore power. If there are a pair of outlets available that are out of phase, everything is good. But if there's only 1 outlet available or they're all in phase, then I'd either need an external transformer to hook up between the dock and the boat, or that situation becomes equivalent to no shore power being available, as having only a single 120V phase available wouldn't be usable with the boat relying on 240V input. That's actually a real problem for working on the boat in the winter, as I often have only a single 30A / 120V connection to hook up to.

The big reason I like the outdated shore power inlet configuration on my boat is that it's very flexible. I have no 240V loads on board, so I can power the entire boat from a single 120V feed if needed (both sides of the panel can be powered from the #1 input if needed). Or I can use 2 feeds without having to care about phasing. So it's easily adaptable to just about any 120V shore power configuration that may be encountered.

This might be fixable with use of one of the Multiplus 2x120V models, but I'd still need an autotransformer for generator balancing. Actually, it wouldn't as the generator could feed the unit in single phase as long as I stay with no 240V loads. The downside becomes that I can power everything off a single 120V feed or a split phase feed, but not twin 120V feeds that are in phase (which isn't really much of an issue). So this might actually be the solution.

I'll have to give this all some more thought though to determine what the changes required (as well as the pros and cons produced) are for each potential configuration.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

That would fix the generator balancing concern. But it still leaves the limitation with 30A shore power. If there are a pair of outlets available that are out of phase, everything is good. But if there's only 1 outlet available or they're all in phase, then I'd either need an external transformer to hook up between the dock and the boat, or that situation becomes equivalent to no shore power being available, as having only a single 120V phase available wouldn't be usable with the boat relying on 240V input. That's actually a real problem for working on the boat in the winter, as I often have only a single 30A / 120V connection to hook up to.

The big reason I like the outdated shore power inlet configuration on my boat is that it's very flexible. I have no 240V loads on board, so I can power the entire boat from a single 120V feed if needed (both sides of the panel can be powered from the #1 input if needed). Or I can use 2 feeds without having to care about phasing. So it's easily adaptable to just about any 120V shore power configuration that may be encountered.

This might be fixable with use of one of the Multiplus 2x120V models, but I'd still need an autotransformer for generator balancing. Actually, it wouldn't as the generator could feed the unit in single phase as long as I stay with no 240V loads. The downside becomes that I can power everything off a single 120V feed or a split phase feed, but not twin 120V feeds that are in phase (which isn't really much of an issue). So this might actually be the solution.

I'll have to give this all some more thought though to determine what the changes required (as well as the pros and cons produced) are for each potential configuration.

Actually, it would work just fine. When all there is ashore is 120V 30A outlets then you simply take that. Set the isolation transformer to 1:2 operation and configure AC input maximum at 15A. Now the transformer makes 240V from the 120V shore power and the current is limited to 30A at 120V, 15A at 240V and this provides the full 3.6kW power that the isolation transformer is rated for

Edit: this provides for 3.6kW average power generation that is added to solar. When ship consumption peaks higher, the batteries assist

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Power doesn’t come by itself, it needs to be generated and we can use several sources like solar panels, diesel or gasoline fueled generators, engine mounted alternators, wind generators and shore power. A modern system allows all of these and is able to run them in any combination, automatically (even though many, including me, like to keep some manual control).

Multiple charging sources mean multiple systems to repair and maintain. For most long distance cruising boat I would suggest a simpler system. You don’t want to be stuck in remote places trying to repair or maintain these systems.

I have no diesel or gasoline fueled generators or wind generator and the last time I used any shore power was over two years ago. With good system design it is possible to cruise in comfort without many of these complications.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Multiple charging sources mean multiple systems to repair and maintain. For most long distance cruising boat I would suggest a simpler system. You don’t want to be stuck in remote places trying to repair or maintain these systems.

I have no diesel or gasoline fueled generators or wind generator and the last time I used any shore power was over two years ago. With good system design it is possible to cruise in comfort without many of these complications.

You will have solar, engine mounted alternator as well as shore power so that is 50% right there. Boats with less space for solar use generators and even wind generators, but almost everyone has at least three power generating sources.

The quote from me doesn’t say you must have them all, just the options from which to choose what you want.

[David Mathis]

The new lithium batteries are safe. The ones in the scooters that burned down apartment houses were safe, the ones starting the fires in cars parked in garages and driveways are safe, and the ones in the cars that had been loaded on the ships transporting them across the ocean were safe until they ignited and sunk the ships.

Imagine waking up at 4am to a boat on fire while you're anchored a half mile or more from shore. You keep the lithium system; I'll run my generator to keep the freezer, ac, ice maker, and refrigerator going and the four big, heavy, and obsolete lead/acid batteries charged.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

No, it doesn’t cost much extra. How many kW are your A/C’s combined? I think you have three times 16,000btu? Then you simply take three Multiplus 3000’s in parallel, which is just one extra that cost what, $1,400? If the Cerbo programming decides the load is unsustainable from battery it will simply start the generator for assist.

sorry. I did not see your response because I figured I was just leaving the thread alone. but I will participate

Looks like i’m at a maximum of 2.1kW per air conditioner and I have 2 of them.

So, 4.2 kW in the hottest conditions which doesn’t include the LRA rating for the compressor starts.

[Iron E]

Originally Posted by David Mathis

The new lithium batteries are safe. The ones in the scooters that burned down apartment houses were safe, the ones starting the fires in cars parked in garages and driveways are safe, and the ones in the cars that had been loaded on the ships transporting them across the ocean were safe until they ignited and sunk the ships.

Imagine waking up at 4am to a boat on fire while you're anchored a half mile or more from shore. You keep the lithium system; I'll run my generator to keep the freezer, ac, ice maker, and refrigerator going and the four big, heavy, and obsolete lead/acid batteries charged.

I'm pretty sure you're talking about a different science/technology than LiFePO4 Batteries.

Speaking of which, Carbon monoxide (from generators) has killed more boaters than LiFePO4

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Chotu

sorry. I did not see your response because I figured I was just leaving the thread alone. but I will participate

Looks like i’m at a maximum of 2.1kW per air conditioner and I have 2 of them.

So, 4.2 kW in the hottest conditions which doesn’t include the LRA rating for the compressor starts.

That’s nothing, you can do that with the two Multiplus 3000’s like in my diagram, no worries. The problem starts when you run both and want to cook dinner at the same time. So you either have to turn one A/C off or buy a third Multiplus 3000 or upgrade to two 5000’s.

Edit: or you simply run the generator when it’s time to cook. The output from the generator is simply added to that of the inverters (which is one of the key points that many don’t get yet)

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by David Mathis

The new lithium batteries are safe. The ones in the scooters that burned down apartment houses were safe, the ones starting the fires in cars parked in garages and driveways are safe, and the ones in the cars that had been loaded on the ships transporting them across the ocean were safe until they ignited and sunk the ships.

Imagine waking up at 4am to a boat on fire while you're anchored a half mile or more from shore. You keep the lithium system; I'll run my generator to keep the freezer, ac, ice maker, and refrigerator going and the four big, heavy, and obsolete lead/acid batteries charged.

Well yeah, your comment is irrational, ignorant and plainly wrong, but that’s okay, as long as you enjoy yourself on the forum you are free to post such comments

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

That’s nothing, you can do that with the two Multiplus 3000’s like in my diagram, no worries. The problem starts when you run both and want to cook dinner at the same time. So you either have to turn one A/C off or buy a third Multiplus 3000 or upgrade to two 5000’s.

Edit: or you simply run the generator when it’s time to cook. The output from the generator is simply added to that of the inverters (which is one of the key points that many don’t get yet)

Ahhh. so they synch the inverter waveform to the generator waveform?

that’s pretty cool. That is definitely a key point.

I was thinking it was on the other end - that the generator adds to the DC side.

but I don’t have the size lithium bank that you do for all of this. I have a different type of electrical system. Interesting to understand yours however.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Iron E

I'm pretty sure you're talking about a different science/technology than LiFePO4 Batteries.

Speaking of which, Carbon monoxide (from generators) has killed more boaters than LiFePO4

yes, I think the number of deaths from LiFePO4 on boats stands at a whopping ZERO right now. lol

there have however, been a couple of deaths from regular old lithium salt batteries in your phone and computer and stuff. Remember that dive boat in California a few years back.

but I think it’s currently at zero for LiFePO4. And none maimed from acid explosions either

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Ahhh. so they synch the inverter waveform to the generator waveform?

that’s pretty cool. That is definitely a key point.

I was thinking it was on the other end - that the generator adds to the DC side.

but I don’t have the size lithium bank that you do for all of this. I have a different type of electrical system. Interesting to understand yours however.

It is called PowerAssist. I included the required size bank which is for the average cruiser… you are in the category that requires more so 10kWh minimum for you. Your system isn’t a different type… it’s not completed maybe or you have dated equipment without these features, which is why I post this thread on how a modern system works. This is the system that all new boats get from factory.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Ahhh. so they synch the inverter waveform to the generator waveform?

that’s pretty cool. That is definitely a key point.

I was thinking it was on the other end - that the generator adds to the DC side.

but I don’t have the size lithium bank that you do for all of this. I have a different type of electrical system. Interesting to understand yours however.

Yes, the Victron inverters can be configured with a limit for how much shore/generator power is available. As you approach the limit, they'll scale back charging to keep you below it. Beyond that, they'll turn on the inverter and sync up to the incoming waveform so they can provide additional power to handle heavier loads, then recharge the batteries when the load is reduced later.

[Grith]

Every technology comes with risks that need to be balanced against benefits. I wonder what controversy the first deaths caused by being run over by a wheel created?
Personally I have integrated lithium batteries into my trailerable cruising yacht by the installation of computer controlled/monitored portable lithium power banks linked into my shore power system and directly connected by Anderson plugs to my solar panels.
These are quickly removable and remotely monitored and remote switched by a phone app. I have hard mounted an old smart phone in my yacht as a permanently visible monitoring station as well as being able to access information and control them by my regular mobile phone.
The units display via this their temperature and state of charge and discharge rates allowing me to accurately monitor most usage profiles and condition instantly.
This solution using two portable battery packs totalling over 4000wh for extended cruising allows me to use 240v power for induction cooking and other uses (eliminating the alternative risks of leaking gas or pressurised alcohol stoves), 240v electric water heating (as outboard powered so no engine heated hotwater) and they also have 12v outlets which I run my 12v compressor refrigerator and separate freezer from.
I have retained my conventional batteries for all the normal onboard equipment and lighting systems.
The detailed computer controller portable lithium battery packages have 2400w 240v continuous sine wave output capabilities each with significant overload startup capability. They can charge at very high speed ( 0-80percent in well under one hour ) with charge speeds being user adjustable though computer over ridden towards the end of the charging cycle.
They can accept up to 800wh each of solar charge even simultaneously with ac charging by generator or shorepower if required ( which I don’t). As an all in one portable unit they carry off my yacht and perform the same function in my slide on truck camper and as solar charged power for my domestic rain water only system and a UPS function for critical domestic power equipment ( like freezers and induction cooktop) when back at my home base when not cruising or camping.
Relatively new technology undergoing rapid improvement but someone has to be a relatively early adopter.

[Chotu]

Fancy stuff. For way, way less money i do have most of the same functionality (not Power Assist)

*400AH @13VDC litime
*2x 2.8KW generators
*Iota DLS-90A Charger with LiFePo4 charge profile
*1500 watts solar
*2x Outback Flex 60A Solar charge controllers
*3kW (6kW peak) pure sine inverter

Batteries sized small on purpose to save weight. Batteries are full by noon every day (14.2V). I only use power during the day above and beyond the refrigerator and freezer at night. so, my excess power consumption is made up by 1500 W of solar. that’s active during the day and takes care of all of my power needs.

only at night is my battery bank used. And I am asleep. So it’s a refrigerator and freezer.

of course this very dark and very cold environment I am in right now has different use patterns than it was designed for but it’s doing fine. I’m still getting three days out of it with no solar input and 3 diesel heaters on 24/7. with the heaters off and me gone, I can almost leave everything indefinitely. Just depends on the weather. A couple of sunny days is enough

All AC loads(refrigerator, freezer, some lighting, electronics) except 4.2kW air conditioning go through the inverter which is on for years on end.

Generators feed Air Conditioning circuits, battery charger (or main power in the case of an emergency).

Extremely redundant without a single point of failure

Works perfectly. Does most of what’s described except Power Asssist which sounds fun, but isn’t strictly necessary.

Many thousands less than the state of the art. works great.

Downside? You have to start 2 generators when you need air conditioning… which is very infrequently on a boat that doesn’t spend time on docks.

Last time i had to start generators for air conditioning was in August. Before that, June or so in Georgia or the Carolinas. Before that, Can’t even remember. A couple times a year.

Using a single generator now (alternating between them) to charge lithium bank for 3 hours every few days due to not having seen sunlight for weeks, 8 hours of daylight, sun very low on horizon, etc etc

Cooktop is propane. i prefer it. Oven is electric, i never use it but probably would if i had a huge battery bank.

However, I have to redo my DC take off. Doing a distributed system which is kind of what I have now, but I am expanding that because I have a lot more items to put onto the DC side. Wind instruments, water maker. I’m out of space.