New Boat: Lithium Now or Later

[SV-Viento]

New 40' mono build for weekend to multi month cruises. Demand side of system will have fridge, full electronics with radar and autopilot, etc but at this time no AC or water maker. These items will be serviced by house bank either FLA or Lithium LiFePo.

Other demands loads include windlass, electric headsail furling, and electric primary winches and starter to be serviced by Separate AGMs via DCtoDC relays.

Shore power, 2 alternators (one to starter and one to house and AGM loads). Future solar is also planned.

THE QUESTION: should we have the House System Set up with lithium now or later and the real question is cost. The entire system is a Mastervolt system. To add Lithium, the builder charge is close to 30K. But my simple math indicates we can add later for roughly half of that. What are we missing? and should we simply move forward with it now or later?

[SV Confianza]

Yeah, $30k is a lot. Converting is quite a pain, so I would try to get it done now. If you have a design for the system, can you just get them to run the wiring properly for LFP and then just do the install yourself?

After upgrading to LFP, I would not go back to a boat without it. I would want any new boat that I purchased to have it, or I would be upgrading it right away.

[Statistical]

$30k for how much capacity (Ah or kWh)?

If you do plan to DIY later I would ensure that alternators and shorepower charger are lithium capable. If they aren't then they will need to be replaced. Particularly for the alternator if you still can I would drop it just to the stock starter bat alternator if it isn't externally regulated and lithium capable.

[SV-Viento]

Originally Posted by SV Confianza

Yeah, $30k is a lot. Converting is quite a pain, so I would try to get it done now. If you have a design for the system, can you just get them to run the wiring properly for LFP and then just do the install yourself?

After upgrading to LFP, I would not go back to a boat without it. I would want any new boat that I purchased to have it, or I would be upgrading it right away.

What did you find difficult about converting yourself? this is one of the things Im trying to sort. Headache vs $$$ exactly the question.

[shimari]

As @Statistical suggests, I'd get a break down of what they install for the lithium and the base system (presumably FLA). This will allow you to ensure the system can be upgraded later just by changing out the batteries should you go that route.

[SV-Viento]

Originally Posted by Statistical

$30k for how much capacity (Ah or kWh)?

If you do plan to DIY later I would ensure that alternators and shorepower charger are lithium capable. If they aren't then they will need to be replaced. Particularly for the alternator if you still can I would drop it just to the stock starter bat alternator if it isn't externally regulated and lithium capable.

You ask good questions and I wasn't sure how much detail to provide up front

The Base FLA house system would have 620Ah.
The Lithium system would have 460 ah.

The alternators are each 115a one is externally regulated the other is not The externally regulated alt is programmable and Lithium compatible.

The inverter charger is also programable and lithium compatible although in theory it could be specified larger and is if we purchase the lithium upgraded system.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by SV-Viento

You ask good questions and I wasn't sure how much detail to provide up front

The Base FLA house system would have 620Ah.
The Lithium system would have 460 ah.

The alternators are each 115a one is externally regulated the other is not The externally regulated alt is programmable and Lithium compatible.

The inverter charger is also programable and lithium compatible although in theory is could be specified larger and is if we purchase the lithium upgraded system.

Then based on that I would strongly lean toward post purchase lithium. I would also wait long enough after taking delivery that they can't blame any post-delivery gremlins on your changes.

If you think you will want a higher output charger/inverter later I would see if they allow you to pay for higher output one now (with FLA system). One less thing to do later.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by SV Confianza

Yeah, $30k is a lot. Converting is quite a pain, so I would try to get it done now. If you have a design for the system, can you just get them to run the wiring properly for LFP and then just do the install yourself?

After upgrading to LFP, I would not go back to a boat without it. I would want any new boat that I purchased to have it, or I would be upgrading it right away.

Conversion can be a pain, but if the systems design is all new, it can be done with LFP in mind. Then later on, it's just a change of batteries, add BMS, and re-configure settings on the rest of the equipment as needed.

[sailorboy1]

I changed over from lead acid 481ah house batteries 5 months ago to 400ah of LFP "drop in" batteries I got off Amazon for $1319 plus about $15 of terminal bolts. I just came back from 4 months cruising and those LFP have not been on shore power once and are working fine.

I made no changes to me boat systems other than programing of the solar/alternator/charger setting.

$30k is INSANE

[SV-Viento]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I changed over from lead acid 481ah house batteries 5 months ago to 400ah of LFP "drop in" batteries I got off Amazon for $1319 plus about $15 of terminal bolts. I just came back from 4 months cruising and those LFP have not been on shore power once and are working fine.

I made no changes to me boat systems other than programing of the solar/alternator/charger setting.

$30k is INSANE

Thanks for chiming in always appreciate your thoughts. Also, I am very aware there is NOTHING sane about 30K for lithium or buying a new boat for that matter but to some degree this is a time v money v technology discussion.

I still need to confirm some details but over this morning I have finally sat down and added up the cost to essentially convert to lithium later after we take delivery and make the lithium system as proposed by the builder. I estimate the cost to be roughly $9K. 1/3rd the proposal from the builder. Hmmmmmmm

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by SV-Viento

Thanks for chiming in always appreciate your thoughts. Also, I am very aware there is NOTHING sane about 30K for lithium or buying a new boat for that matter but to some degree this is a time v money v technology discussion.

I still need to confirm some details but over this morning I have finally sat down and added up the cost to essentially convert to lithium later after we take delivery and make the lithium system as proposed by the builder. I estimate the cost to be roughly $9K. 1/3rd the proposal from the builder. Hmmmmmmm

Is this a 24V system because 12V 460 Ah shouldn't be anywhere near that especially if you can reuse the existing alternator & inverter/charger.

Renogy 12V 200Ah battery is $1k. I am not advocating them just picked them because they are one of the most expensive drop in replacement brands. So 12V 600Ah should be ~$3k plus cables, fuses, and odd bits. Even 24V 600Ah should be ~$6k.

[wholybee]

That is a tough one. I would call your insurance company. $30k is about 3x as much as it should cost. Maybe 5x depending on selections. What you are paying for is that it is going to be easily insurable because it is a factory install.
Doing it yourself after the fact, it may or may not be insurable, depending on a number of factors. None of which are "is it safe." or "is it correct." So, call your insurance company and ask what their requirements are.

[SV-Viento]

Originally Posted by Statistical

Is this a 24V system because 12V 460 Ah shouldn't be anywhere near that especially if you can reuse the existing alternator & inverter/charger.

Renogy 12V 200Ah battery is $1k. I am not advocating them just picked them because they are one of the most expensive drop in replacement brands. So 12V 600Ah should be ~$3k plus cables, fuses, and odd bits. Even 24V 600Ah should be ~$6k.

Yes a 12 volt system and the whole system is Mastervolt. I know it seems obscene but Im sharing very real numbers. for me to buy the "Mastervolt MLI ultra 12/3000 batteries alone will cost 3600 USD each. X2 = 7200 and that's just the batteries with their built in BMS. to maintain the Mastervolt spec and build the same as the builder would cost roughly an additional 2K. Not cheap but the upside would be a very straightforward integrated system and still far less than the 30K by the builder.

[SV-Viento]

Originally Posted by wholybee

That is a tough one. I would call your insurance company. $30k is about 3x as much as it should cost. Maybe 5x depending on selections. What you are paying for is that it is going to be easily insurable because it is a factory install.
Doing it yourself after the fact, it may or may not be insurable, depending on a number of factors. None of which are "is it safe." or "is it correct." So, call your insurance company and ask what their requirements are.

Dear Wholybee you are a smart person -

I'm home today working on this topic and have exchanged emails with insurance who have been amazingingly helpful. Here is the reply with some redaction as I have not asked them if OK to bring publicly forward.


Yes, Lithium batteries can have an impact on your insurance here in the U.S.

It will limit the # of companies we can go to for coverage. As of right now, we will not be able to obtain quotes from XYZ. We will still be able to get quotes from XYZ2, XYZ3, XYZ4 (if the value is $XXXK or greater), XYZ5, etc. Please know, this can change as Lithium batteries are an extremely hot topic and the insurance companies’ stances are constantly evolving.

We’ll need confirmation the Ion batteries installed are Lithium-Iron-Phosphate -- LiFePO4.

You’ll want to make sure you have documentation that the Lithium Ion Battery manufacturer’s recommended charger is installed to accompany the lithium Ion battery.

So Yes we could add lithium for far less, as others have correctly suggested, but not at the expense of insurability.

BTW I have read many strings on this/these topics but want everyone know that I/we really appreciate your thoughts and input it is helping us structure our thoughts and decision.

[SV Confianza]

Originally Posted by SV-Viento

What did you find difficult about converting yourself? this is one of the things Im trying to sort. Headache vs $$$ exactly the question.

There was a decent amount of rewiring and then adding sensing wires. This could be solved by just asking them to wire the alternator to charge the house bank, and then have the house bank charge the starter banks, so it will be easier to do LFP later.

Feeding wires through conduit that was waterproofed was fun. A good amount of expensive battery cable had to be tossed and new ones made. I didn't want to extend cables that were too short to add resistance points.

I had to replace my alternators, though, and wire the regulators, since those didn't exist. So if you were already planning alternators capable of charging LFP with external regulators, that makes it easier. I know some may argue, but you'll want beefier alternators for LFP. Your power usage will grow a bit to your power ability, and alternators used for a LA setup will probably be inadequate. The minimum small case alternator that I would recommend is the Balmar xt170.

Lots of other good comments here, but I think Statistical has a good point about the warranty. Will they start blaming any issues on your modifications to the electrical system. That alone might be worth just some negotiation with them on price of the LFP setup, or making sure the warranty will still be valid if they wire the LFP and you can make your own choices.

If you're interested in what our setup looks like, I documented it here: https://www.clevermariner.com/post/c...work-from-boat