New Lithium setup for off grid cruising - and air conditioning

[Networker]

Upgrades underway. Before and during photos of everything. It will take a few weeks before I can post after photos, which will be a much cleaner engine room and wiring, new nav station, etc..

So far we removed the old batteries, installed the new batteries, built a nice battery box/shelf, which all went into the engine room. Average temp in Miami in summer with engine running is about 94F, so it's cold enough safely keep LiFePO batteries. Lots of temperature monitoring in the room, each equipment has a temp sensor (Victron battery monitor, inverter, MPPT's, etc).

On the electronics side, spent an entire day just removing the old electronics. At nav station removed battery monitor, VHF, stereo, FURUNO radar, Lowrance chart plotter, weather device of some sort, etc.. At helm, removed really really old (original year 2000 equipment) speed, wind and autopilot instruments.

Have a ton of wiring that I need to figure out, most of it seems like excess or for phantom equipment, but let's see. Would love to clean that up by the nav station too.

Next to go in this week: Victron inverter, MPPT's, battery monitoring equipment, etc. Raymarine Axiom 9+, four i70S, Autopilot (ACU-400 / EV-1), Vesper Cortex, Peplink Max Transit 5G router.

[bensolomon]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Don't know how far down this road you've already traveled but I see some major difficulties, both in the installation/operation and maintenance of this system.



But anyhow I am going to recommend you don't do it.



In the first place just installing all of this is a major project. You have a variety of technical stuff to fit and connect and in some cases I am not sure you won't have some headaches getting it all to work together.



In the best case it might just work but only if everything is optimal. How will you know how everything is functioning? I wonder how much monitoring granularity you will get from the Victron equipment. The whole boat may become a big black box.



Where I really would be concerned is the batteries. In order to make 300AH they have put 12 3.4v cells connected in a combination of series and parallel, and for this they have one BMS board. So if any cell goes out of spec the whole battery shuts down? What then? And what information is passed to the monitoring system to tell you what the problem is?



And how to you go about fixing something when one of these technical marvels goes bad in the Bahamas (and assuredly, something will, it's a boat).



You know, if you want all the comforts of home, stay home. Or you can fly to the Bahamas and stay in Airbnb, WITH all the comforts of home, for less money and certainly less headache.

But not nearly as much fun!

[Networker]

Another few weeks until we are done, but given all the heavy electrical device draws from the boat, the biggest change made was swapping out the Victron MultiPlus for the Victron Quattro. The 3000w inverter just sounded too small, even 5000 does, but have to start somewhere.

Alternator-wise, no one thinks the 1440w of solar will give us anything near the power we need, so I decided to go with a 250amp alternator, serpentine kit, and a Wakespeed-powered external regulator from APS for the ability to detect the engine’s RPM’s and back off the regulator if the engine needs the horse power. This blog at Panbo gives a good overview of the benefits:
https://panbo.com/how-wakespeeds-ws500-alternator-regulator-solves-complex-charging-issues-a-new-approach/

I almost went with a 48v 165 amp alternator from Balmar or an Integrel, but neither had a frame for my engine, else I’d be looking at 8-9kw, from the alternator vs the 3kw we’ll get now.

Shakedown cruise is in a few weeks, will see how it all works and handles.

[mcarthur]

Look forward to hearing more networker. Can you explain the multiplus vs quattro decision? Was it a MP II or just the original? We had our eyes on the Quattro 5000/48 but would love to hear your story there.

[Networker]

I tried to get a MultiPlus 2, but they were sold out. That would have been a good unit. The 12v/5k Quattro vs the 12v/3k MultiPlus came down to the inverter size and the ability to use multiple heavy duty loads at once. The electric stove we got, if we used all 3 burners and the oven all at once draws 4900W on its own. So that alone would have tripped the MultiPlus. If we only had 3k inverter and ran AC plus made an espresso, or any other heavy load combo, would have tripped us up. It would have been a pain.

Even the 5k Quattro isn’t that much, we were told I should be think about it in terms of generator size; even a 6k generator unit would be too small for the boat, so a 5k inverter is too. But I don’t feel like networking 2 Quattros, so we’ll just have to be careful not to run too much heavy loads at once.

The other reason for the Quattro was that we could wire all 50a direct past through via shore power 50a circuit vs having to select which devices we’d have to run to shore power on a 30a circuit via the MultiPlus. Then if we ever got dirty power or overloaded the circuit at shore, we could let the Quattro use batteries to pick up the slack.

[mcarthur]

Thank you very much for that information - helps understand. I have heard issues with networking Quattros unless they are exactly the same (firmware AND other things like build dates and location, not just model number)

[Networker]

Originally Posted by mcarthur

Thank you very much for that information - helps understand. I have heard issues with networking Quattros unless they are exactly the same (firmware AND other things like build dates and location, not just model number)

I’ve read similar. Given all the electronic devices on the boat, I believe there’s 15 between the Vesper, Victron and Raymarine boxes that all need periodic firmware updates, ASA should add firmware maintenance to its list of todos next to oil and engine maintenance. The engine room is starting to look more like a data center than an engine room.

[MerMike]

You might consider going 24v in the Quattro. The 12v units run hot.

The Multiplus II's are around. PM me if you still want one.

[Steve_C]

It would appear that a 12V 5000 Multiplus is not an option. In order to go Multiplus 5000 you would need to go either 24V or 48V. I have even considered going with 2 - 3000/12V Multiplus as its still considerably cheaper than a 5000/12V Quatro. I could potentially wire my Kitchen to one Multiplus and remotely switch it off when not in use. Still considering all the options.
For what its worth I currently have 2 3000/24V Multiplus units networked together. They also run very hot when working hard even if just in charging mode. It would be hard to imagine a 12V unit running any hotter.

[Networker]

Quick updates on this journey. One of the cruel things about upgrading to Lithium energy on a boat is you have to pay .5 - 1x the cost of the energy equipment to manage the charging of it. So spending $7,500 on solar panels and LiFePO batteries means you need to spend at least .5 - 1x that for the various solar chargers, inverters, MPPT’s, wiring, etc., to manage it all. Even if you got solar and batteries for free, you’d still be out thousands of dollars in the adjacent equipment to charge it all.

If you’re like me and want to see what’s going on, you have to spend another .25-.5x in monitoring equipment, network it all and make it communicate so any data is available on any screen on or off the boat. This isn’t a must have thing, but something I wanted to do given I’m a tech nerd. I’m 4/5th of the way done, and it’s an actual jungle of standards and cables to get everything viewable on every other device, but I’ve finally cracked it. I thought everything would have communicated with everything else over Bluetooth or Wi-Fi, but no way. Even most of the Victron equipment can’t talk to other Victron equipment via Bluetooth, and they advertise smart and Bluetooth as a selling point. In fact, some of the ‘smart’ Victron equipment I bought has Bluetooth (i.e Orion DC-to-DC charger), but it isn’t even usable. Perhaps it will be in the future they say.

With that said, the big hero in making everything talk to everything is the Victron Cerbo GX. Out of the box, you plug it in and you’re able to see your MultiPlus or Quattro Inverter / Charger (with the right cable - a VE Bus cable), plus your BMS 712 Smart Battery Monitor (if you have another cable - VE Direct). Then you can view all the data on a GX Touch 50 (with yet another style cable - HDMI with power), or via Bluetooth via the Victron Connect App. Basic functionality such as monitoring, rebooting the inverter, putting it into charge only mode, etc. can be done from the any of these screens, which saves a trip into the engine room. With yet another cable (Raynet to RJ45 ethernet cable), you can get battery data to show up on the Raymarine Axiom MFD and have similar functionality and monitoring while sailing. With yet another cable (a VE.Can to NMEA 2000 Micro-C), you can get all your Victron Data into the NMEA 2000 network and visa versa. I diagramed it all out below.

From there things get more fun as you can buy the appropriate tank monitoring sensors, add NMEA 2000 adaptors and display tank-level data on any of these devices. I chose NMEA 2000 vs directly wiring resistive sensors into the Cerbo GX as I wanted any app or screen to see tank level data, not just Victron-specific screens and apps. For instance, if I want to see fuel tank or water tank levels up at the Axiom, or on my phone over WiFi, you need to go down the NMEA 2000 route. I added some low-cost Yacht Devices NMEA 2000 temperature sensors (one for inside and another for outside the boat), and one of their NEMA 2000 Barometer sensors so I can get barometric level historical data into the network. Coupled with the standard Raymarine wind and sea temp/depth transducers, I have full weather capabilities on the NMEA 2000 network to detect current conditions. Last, I added the Vesper Cortex to the network so I can get GPS, AIS and other associated data into the NMEA network. All of this just covers how to monitor boat systems onboard from any screen.

To put it online so its viewable from any device, from on-boat, to Wi-Fi, to remotely over cellular and in mobile aps requires more networks. I bought a Peplink Max Transit 5G Wi-Fi/Cellular router and added dual network SIM’s. This was simple to set up and created both a Local Wi-Fi network as well as internet. I paid $50 for 50GB for a T-Mobile connection and used my existing Google Fi SIM for backup and overseas roaming (Google Fi has incredible pricing for overseas data usage if you’re not gone more than 6 months of the year). With this, I’m able to connect the Cerbo GX, Vesper Cortex and other devices to the local Wi-Fi and get ALL this data off the boat so I can view it in the Victron VMS or Cortex Monitor app. From here I can see the temp, energy usage and other data about the boat from my couch, and have useful functions such as anchor alarms, bilge alarms, and or weather data helping me rest assured the boat is still floating. I can always tell if the boat is ok, if the air conditioning or refrigerator or freezer is working (yes, I got NMEA sensors for those too) and while it’s not super useful to have all this, it’s certainly cool if you’re a data nerd like me.

The last mile I’m working on is a SignalK server so I can once again view any of this data and more onboard or remote vs having to rely on a vendor to supply remote monitoring. For instance, Vesper Cortex’s remote monitoring seems to be down right now, so I have no redundancy into remote alarms. What’s more interesting, is Signal K has software integrations into the things I care about such as weather forecasting from NOAA. I can not only see current conditions from boat sensors on and off the boat via a single screen, but conditions further away in space (other buoys and weather stations in the area) helping me know what I’m sailing into, as well as further away in time (weather forecasting), all from a single screen. I’m imagining a SailFlow-like experience on the boat, and will research how to get tide and current data into this next. I’ll probably start with an iKommunikate device to get SignalK as they have the hardware, a web server and basic SignalK functionality for cheap.

[Networker]

Got 4 175w solar panels on the Bimini this weekend, each connected to a dedicated MPPT, then into the battery bank. They’re producing exactly what I’d hoped, but it’s only 2200wh/day. I have another 1200w of Solar going on the rear arch, and these should produce about 4200w/day. At about 6400wh/day, I’m getting about 500 ah/juice. If I run the high output alternator for an hour at breakfast and another at dinner, I should get another 200-250ah, giving me 700-750ah on a good day. That’s just about what I need to run my systems and equipment if I downsize from 16k BTU to a 6-9k BTU AC. If only run at night, I should be fine with 16k BTU AC, as from what I can tell, it doesn’t run much at night even here in S. Florida in late summer, but the more I look at AC, one of the original responders recommended a VSD-based AC unit from Velair, and the more I think about it, the better that idea becomes. With alll that said, I think I’ve achieved my goal set out in this thread, but let’s see and I’ll keep updating this thread over next few weeks as I wrap it up and head out for some shakedown cruises in the Keys.

Setup of the panels is dead simple, but monitoring the panels via the Cerbo GX is ridiculous. I’ll need more VE Direct to USB cables that get put into a USB hub, which is then connected to the Cerbo. Why they don’t all just talk and share data over Bluetooth is a mystery and eschatology me. All these cables are insane.

[mcarthur]

Yes, the Cerbo GX solution of a USB hub for more than a small number of MPPT inputs is silly, let alone the cables TO the usb hub! Victron have a ridiculously complex product line which isn't even internally consistent

[Networker]

Did an overnight this weekend on the boat to test out AC on the hook and given it’s a 16k BTU Dometic drawing 10.5 amps at 115v, even keeping it at 85F, the compressor never really went off and still drew the full 1400w/hour when going through the inverter. That’s just not going to work.

I can’t fit any more panels on the boat to keep it powered, and buying more batteries will just delay the inevitable since I can’t generate more power. I will have to get a smaller Velair i10 VSD air conditioner and go for cutting my watts in half.

Getting one this week and will report back, but on paper, this should be how to run AC on solar + lithium and still have some capacity and power generation via alternator to make up the rest and power rest of boat.

[Adelie]

Has anybody considered a doghouse AC unit?
https://cozywinters.com/shop/dog-house-ac.html
$350
350W
1400BTU
Probably good for one insulated cabin.

[Seafarer7]

Networker: if you have the space and budget for it I recommend the i16k Velair, not the 10k. That way you retain the full btu range: 3000+ btu to 16k btu. I can easily run my i16k indefinitely off of solar + inverter on a good day by tuning down the btu/power to low mode, such that it’s under 400 watts, well below the solar output (>1kw). On my last test the Velair was running (low mode) and I still had excess power (the solar controllers were discarding excess solar while holding the batteries at float)