Our move to lithium with specific questions relating to keeping existing components

[Chaff]

Hi everyone,

I have been doing lots of 'internet research' as well as discussing with some electricians. I think I have settled on our 'solution' however due to the desire to recycle existing components from our comprehensive(ish) 1120Ah AGM system I would welcome feedback on some of our specific decisions.

Outline of current system:
L421, 40Hp Yanmars, Standard Hitachi 80A (yeah right) alternators, two x AB12210s, 50Ah 750CCA starters, single 1120Ah AGM bank running everything, Mastervolt Mass Combi Ultra 3000, charging one start and house, other start gets charged from AB12210 only. Mastershunt 500 for house, other battering monitoring is both Lagoon factory system, and a Mastervolt BTM-III, 800W of solar through two MPPTs charging house only. All our various batter monitoring says different things and the Shunt does pretty dubious Ah tracking

Our intentions currently:
Moving to 900-1000Ah lithium (depending on battery type and number). Due to VERY restrictive AUS/NZ standards pretty much must be Victron, adding a Victron BMS.
Adding a further 800W-1200W solar.
Replacing AB12210s with Orion 30A chargers (start to house).
Keeping running ALL systems other than start off house. Direct from house switchable emergency start option retained.

Why this plan?
This appears to be the cheapest way to transition us, initially, to Lithium. I believe all existing components will manage the move, with the possible exception of some cabling. DC to DC will protect the alternators and get 'some' use out of engines when running.

Observations.
Our alternators currently provide very little to no charge to house (probably heat/ age?). Whilst we will get this looked at by the electrician prior to the work being done, I am not after a big alternator upgrade and subsequent alternator regulation at this stage (probably stage II). We will definitely upgrade solar, and don't want to do it all in one go and find out the alternators aren't really required anyway. If we do choose to do the Alternators, then we 'could' swap the DC to DC around at the same time, and go regulated and protected alternators to house, then house to start using the same Orions.

Questions/ concerns.
Are our existing systems suitable for the change? Is there any harm in mixing MasterVolt and Victron?
Is there any problem with my 'wait and see' approach to the Alternators/ DC to DC plan?
Should we go Victron 330Ah or 200Ah and does it matter?
Can I put a switch in so that we can alternate which of our Start Batteries the Mass Combi Ultra charges?
We will replace start batteries at the same time. Can I downgrade the size as they seem pretty chunky currently to JUST start the engines.

I welcome any other comments, concerns, ideas. I appreciate that there may be a desire to post 'just spend the money upfront and do it all/ build perfect solution from the start', believe me we've considered it.

Thanks for any help provided, sorry if this reads like 'just another lithium thread' I have tried to make it specific to us.

Al

[chris in SG]

You don't mention a generator, so I assume you don't have one. If that's the case, I really think you should go ahead with the alternator/regulator upgrade. If you are hoping that the new battery bank will see you through days or weeks of overcast weather, I think you will be disappointed. On the other hand, 1,000 Ah is an impressive reserve, but what is your daily Ah usage? I predict that you will shortly receive alot of expert advice on this thread and most likely you will be asked to explain your 'energy balance'..

[Chaff]

Thanks Chris yes good point. We only run a portable 2kw genny we clag into shore power if required.

Overcast days even with 1600 to 2kw solar is a concern good point.

I must admit we are probably oversized the bank for usage. It's partially based on our current size (knowing we should get waaaay more usable from lithium. I wasn't planning on running all the numbers... haha.

Yes better alternators vice genny for when we need a massive boost is a good point.

[Tin Tin]

Unless you are running airconditioning off your house bank you have plenty of AH in 1000 and bank and solar. Assume you have propane cookers.

I don't recall any standard that requires Victron type LifePo4 batteries.
Most LifepO4 now come with a internal BMS (including Victron) but other brands are considerably less expensive.

Victron now make a more efficient and cooler running DC DC charger to 50A
I think you may be overcooking the goose.

[Chaff]

Thanks Tin Tin. The standard is AS/NZS 3004.2 (2014) which is required by NZ/ AUS insurance companies for lithium installs.

It is quite onerous as it requires separate cell monitoring and automatic shutoff by cell temperature.

I know a number of big players are trying to meet the standard with new batteries under development.

Al

[Johan Leopard51]

I think my long post got lost. In essence:

Those two 300A alternator chargers are way overkill for those two 40Hp motors and they are not lithium compatible (which brings up debate about LifePO4 compatible vs other Lithium chemistry compatible). I’m unclear whether the Sterlings are also your charging relay (basically it allows cross connect house and starters when either side is over say 13.2V for over 2 minutes or so. That function is critical if you want motors to help.

With those two motors you are not a candidate for 48V system like Integrel.

I am still planning but going to probably over-size my next inverter-charger. In my setup I believe I have so much (four fridges, fans, ice maker, assorted AC gadgets and central boat systems) running off house that it almost never has breathing space. When I have sources, I want max charge. If it means I can also move saloon (Power cat) Aircon to battery instead of #$%@$ generator then even better

Consider a hookup with gennie to rectifier to DC busbar instead of Gennie:Inverter: DC Busbar. It would be more efficient and if inverter goes tits up you can keep life-critical house bank going.

Solar is now dirt cheap (wholesale price about USD0.12/Watt is half what it was 18 months ago). Considering installer cost, go max solar from the start, all with same panels.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Chaff

Thanks Tin Tin. The standard is AS/NZS 3004.2 (2014) which is required by NZ/ AUS insurance companies for lithium installs.

It is quite onerous as it requires separate cell monitoring and automatic shutoff by cell temperature.

I know a number of big players are trying to meet the standard with new batteries under development.

Al

Separate cell monitoring with programmable relays to do stuff can easily be done with a (properly specified) external BMS. That allows you to save heaps of money buying grade A (or B or whatever you want if you watch Will Prouse) cells direct from China and building your own battery or batteries if you want the additional complexity of parallel batteries for higher capacity. Go as big as you can with your LFP because you will most likely find ways to use the extra capacity (electric galley, running windlass without running an engine, some AC (not much with a 12V system)).

In either case one component you’re missing is a disconnect switch that can be controlled by the BMS, such as the Blue Sea ML-RBS remote battery switch. It goes between your battery fuse and the positive bus bar. NOTHING connects between RBS and the battery. It should disconnect your battery from all loads and/or chargers in case of over/under-voltage and over/under-temperature (and any other circumstances you want to define).

You will also need a new T-class fuse or equivalent as the resistance of the LFP battery is so much lower than that of your AGMs - you can’t reuse the same slow-acting and too-small fuse(s) you’ve likely already got..

Regarding mixing manufacturers, not a problem. Interoperability may suffer, but it’s not insurmountable and significantly reduces the costs associated with a change over. You can always change later - Victron blue is very seductive once you add a GX-device or a Cerbo.

[Chaff]

Originally Posted by Johan Leopard51

Those two 300A alternator chargers are way overkill for those two 40Hp motors and they are not lithium compatible (which brings up debate about LifePO4 compatible vs other Lithium chemistry compatible). I’m unclear whether the Sterlings are also your charging relay (basically it allows cross connect house and starters when either side is over say 13.2V for over 2 minutes or so. That function is critical if you want motors to help.
.

Thanks Johan, all makes sense but just to check, I was thinking 2 x Orion 30A DC to DC (not 300A) to go from starter batteries to lithium to help top them up when engines running. Then if we upgrade the Alternators and go direct from Alternator (with regulators) to lithium house, swap around and use lithium to charge start batteries. I was under the impression that the Orion Tr 30A DC to DC chargers could go in either direction.

[Chaff]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Separate cell monitoring with programmable relays to do stuff can easily be done with a (properly specified) external BMS. That allows you to save heaps of money buying grade A (or B or whatever you want if you watch Will Prouse) cells direct from China and building your own battery or batteries if you want the additional complexity of parallel batteries for higher capacity.

In either case one component you’re missing is a disconnect switch that can be controlled by the BMS, such as the Blue Sea ML-RBS remote battery switch. It goes between your battery fuse and the positive bus bar. NOTHING connects between RBS and the battery. It should disconnect your battery from all loads and/or chargers in case of over/under-voltage and over/under-temperature (and any other circumstances you want to define).

You will also need a new T-class fuse or equivalent as the resistance of the LFP battery is so much lower than that of your AGMs - you can’t reuse the same slow-acting and too-small fuse(s) you’ve likely already got..

I think buying separate cells from China is a bit beyond us but it is useful to identify that this would overcome the insurance issue. I quite like the look of SOK batteries but they are not yet compliant.

I have yet to check but I think the fuse in our Mastershunt 500 is suitable. If we do need another one, do I put it before or after the Mastershunt? (note this is not a 'normal' shunt in that it goes in at the positive not negative.

Does the Victron BMS not enable us to disconnect?

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Chaff

I think buying separate cells from China is a bit beyond us but it is useful to identify that this would overcome the insurance issue. I quite like the look of SOK batteries but they are not yet compliant.

I have yet to check but I think the fuse in our Mastershunt 500 is suitable. If we do need another one, do I put it before or after the Mastershunt? (note this is not a 'normal' shunt in that it goes in at the positive not negative.

Does the Victron BMS not enable us to disconnect?

We built our system using Winston cells. No personal experience with any other cells nor with any integrated LFP batteries. But generally, the ones with integrated BMS are not very good for programmable relays to disconnect the battery.

The fuse on the positive should be the first thing connected to the battery’s positive terminal. I don’t have any experience with the Mastershunt so can’t comment on whether its fuse is all you need and/or whether its fuse is suitable for LFP.

What do the Victron BMS specifications say? If it has programmable relays then yes, it should be able to command a disconnect. But what piece of equipment will it command to do the actual, physical disconnect? That’s why something like the Blue Sea ML-RBS is needed.

[Johan Leopard51]

Originally Posted by Chaff

Thanks Johan, all makes sense but just to check, I was thinking 2 x Orion 30A DC to DC (not 300A) to go from starter batteries to lithium to help top them up when engines running. Then if we upgrade the Alternators and go direct from Alternator (with regulators) to lithium house, swap around and use lithium to charge start batteries. I was under the impression that the Orion Tr 30A DC to DC chargers could go in either direction.

I don’t know those Sterling, sorry. We have two BlueSea ACR that allow alternator to “see” the house battery. I have replaced two and having issue with one again, so likely next time replace with Victron ACR as rest of my system likely will be Victron. You want something that will link house to alternator, most realistically often, when starter is happy, but also keep starter happy when house battery is very happy.

We’ll likely go 48V alternator onto enormous LiFePO4 bank and dump gennie and it would then run a Victron DCC between the 52V third battery bank and the normal house battery bank. I will keep all the normal boat 12V stuff on the house bank and use the LiFePO4 as an energy store plus also as DC supply to the AC loads. So new inverter uses for AC purpose 48V battery as source and that same 48V battery via DCC keeps the house and starter batteries happy. Might keep the old 12V Victron manually switchable installed in case the big Victron has a wobble.

I deduce you are a sail cat, so your situation in a way tougher : I have 740Hp motors available when underway. You have motors when wind is too little and motor sailing? Trying to sort peaceful life when spend days at an atoll without cruising, from solar, plus when we do run motors, fill up big bank fastest possible. Looks like can do about 16kW charge rate

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Chaff

I think buying separate cells from China is a bit beyond us but it is useful to identify that this would overcome the insurance issue. I quite like the look of SOK batteries but they are not yet compliant.

I have yet to check but I think the fuse in our Mastershunt 500 is suitable. If we do need another one, do I put it before or after the Mastershunt? (note this is not a 'normal' shunt in that it goes in at the positive not negative.

Does the Victron BMS not enable us to disconnect?

Get the EEL KIT for 12V with a 200A JK BMS and buy EVE 304 Cells from QSO.
https://es.aliexpress.com/item/10050...EaApSDEALw_wcB

That kit contains all you need incl. A great BMS that you can monitor the cell voltages via BT.
Super simple to build them, you find dozen video how to do that. If you maintain your engine you can do that.

I agree with the other if DC2DC get the Victron Orion XS in 50A, they integrate nicely into victron and your system. They can be also dialed back in 1A steps to the max that your alternator can do.
The 30A are heating bricks with basically nothing to adjust and deliver 27A...one of the worst victron products, the XS are far superior and worth the extra 50Euro.

BUT I have another, much easier solution and just right away the right thing to do.
Step 1:
If your guys checks the Hitachi anyhow just modify them to external regulation right away, that's super simple and should be around 100AUD per alternator. Get a Balmar 614 or 618 regulator that runs the 80A alternator. Like this the Hitachi actually manages around 60A per Alternator, the existing V-Belt can do that too.
If you want more you just have to swap the alternator and most likely the V-belt to serpentine belt then, rest stays as is. No recalling, no swapping around of components....


Step 2: the alternator is then connected to a Victron ArgoFET 200A splitting diode. get right away the 200A version, it's 50AUD more expensive then the 100A and you can reuse if getting bigger alternators.
One output connects to lifepo4 house, the other connects to starter battery. The same you do in the other hull/engine. The alternator charges both battery banks in (isolated from each other) parallel and is protected as the Lead starter is always there, also if lead completely busted that works compared to DC2DC route.
You can keep the existing joining of the starter agm with a combiner relay as Lagoon has that standard. Because you reuse that as when eg. STB engine runs it charges STB starter which is the connected to BB starter too. In case of a disconnect the AGM is always there.

I just know prices in Euro but that should be similar in AUD.
Option DC2DC:
2x DC2DC Orion XS is 600Euro, so total 600EURO for 2 engines. the alternators do in best case 35-40A each like this.
If you add later bigger alternators that has to be completely changed and recabled. To charge starter the 50A XS as well as 30A one is total overkill and the orion 18A or even renogy 20A DC2DC would be the right ones. So you wasted 400Euro...

Option Argofet:
2x modify alternator 200Euro
2x Balmar 700Euro
2x argofet 300Euro
Total 1200 for 2 engines.
That's intiallay double costs but
A) you get 2x60A=120A charge versus 80A
B) you install that once, if you want bigger alternator (which you most likley will) you just have to swap the alternator and NOTHING else have to be changed. The modified Hitachi make great spare part/ backup alternator in case big one breaks....

Alternative to the argofets you can just get 2x Orion TR smart 18A to charge the starter from the lifepo4. My issue with that is that if the lifepo4 house is dead you cannot charge the starter battery while with argofet you start the engine and run all house loads via starter battery that's kept charged by the engine.

[The Yacht Rigger]

We recently released this video regarding lithium battery installs, I think you will find it helpful.
Please ask any questions in the comments on the video as our electrical team is all in the loop right there.
https://youtu.be/2r6NbG73qZg?si=zJzWdVTehUbTHoYg

[Johan Leopard51]

Originally Posted by The Yacht Rigger

We recently released this video regarding lithium battery installs, I think you will find it helpful.
Please ask any questions in the comments on the video as our electrical team is all in the loop right there.
https://youtu.be/2r6NbG73qZg?si=zJzWdVTehUbTHoYg

Neat work!

We’re considering a 48V Integrel on each (370Hp Yanmar V8) motor plus install solar. Unfortunately we’re 12 time zones away unless you sometimes travel to Seychelles…

Anyway, my thinking is/was:
Keep the Yanmar alternator that via two ACR and DC busbar can keep both starter and 12V house battery charged.

Keep all the DC house loads where they are, on the house bank.

Likely upgrade the house bank to LifePO4. So from video, here might need to think differently about old alternator and old ACR having viz on the 12V LiFePO4 unless something from Victron sits between that 12Vdc busbar and the house bank - or replace the ACR with a Victron product that will combine starters and house correctly???

Chuck the generator and in that space drop a large kWh LifePO4 battery bank.
The LiFEPO4 bank is only an energy store and is used primarily to run a new Victron inverter for AC loads, secondary purpose is to via DCC, supply the 12V house bank.

House bank no longer (directly) supplies AC inverter and gets recharge from either the old alternators or from the 48Vdc bank via DCC.

If Integrel fails or an alternator fails I should have redundancy - a concern since gennie goes.

We have a large roof on the power cat and no real shading concerns so was thinking to connect solar to the 48Vdc battery. Still figuring size but will be a nice amount.

WHY do all this?
1. When yacht not in use I’d prefer her not on shore power which in her marina is not only $$$$ but it has terrible earthing. So solar keeps everything happy and we can even add things like dehumidifier and fuel polishing system from the solar alone for free.
2. I detest generator so want to get to stage where for the short periods we need high AC power, we can run that from new larger Victron inverter and that 48Vdc battery bank. For low battery situation is guests are energy pigs and solar wasn’t enough, start up one or both motors (around 15kW from the two motors). I’m still figuring the kWh of that 48Vdc LiFePO4 bank but will likely go large as I can fit in about a cubic meter of space.

Why integrel? It seems they have sign-off from Yanmar on that V8 and maybe go for the version where can propel the yacht off the Integrel. No motors albeit for short duration low power (which we often do around reefs and atolls).

Do you spot any major “design concept” flaws?

[Chaff]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

I agree with the other if DC2DC get the Victron Orion XS in 50A, they integrate nicely into victron and your system. They can be also dialed back in 1A steps to the max that your alternator can do.
The 30A are heating bricks with basically nothing to adjust and deliver 27A...one of the worst victron products, the XS are far superior and worth the extra 50Euro.

BUT I have another, much easier solution and just right away the right thing to do.
Step 1:
If your guys checks the Hitachi anyhow just modify them to external regulation right away, that's super simple and should be around 100AUD per alternator. Get a Balmar 614 or 618 regulator that runs the 80A alternator. Like this the Hitachi actually manages around 60A per Alternator, the existing V-Belt can do that too.
If you want more you just have to swap the alternator and most likely the V-belt to serpentine belt then, rest stays as is. No recalling, no swapping around of components....


Step 2: the alternator is then connected to a Victron ArgoFET 200A splitting diode. get right away the 200A version, it's 50AUD more expensive then the 100A and you can reuse if getting bigger alternators.
One output connects to lifepo4 house, the other connects to starter battery. The same you do in the other hull/engine. The alternator charges both battery banks in (isolated from each other) parallel and is protected as the Lead starter is always there, also if lead completely busted that works compared to DC2DC route.
You can keep the existing joining of the starter agm with a combiner relay as Lagoon has that standard. Because you reuse that as when eg. STB engine runs it charges STB starter which is the connected to BB starter too. In case of a disconnect the AGM is always there.

I just know prices in Euro but that should be similar in AUD.
Option DC2DC:
2x DC2DC Orion XS is 600Euro, so total 600EURO for 2 engines. the alternators do in best case 35-40A each like this.
If you add later bigger alternators that has to be completely changed and recabled. To charge starter the 50A XS as well as 30A one is total overkill and the orion 18A or even renogy 20A DC2DC would be the right ones. So you wasted 400Euro...

Option Argofet:
2x modify alternator 200Euro
2x Balmar 700Euro
2x argofet 300Euro
Total 1200 for 2 engines.
That's intiallay double costs but
A) you get 2x60A=120A charge versus 80A
B) you install that once, if you want bigger alternator (which you most likley will) you just have to swap the alternator and NOTHING else have to be changed. The modified Hitachi make great spare part/ backup alternator in case big one breaks....
.

Great info re: Orion XS. We are actually in Greece as opposed to Australia. It doesnt appear very easy to get the Balmar 618s here in Greece, unless you know otherwise. Also, do we need to get the pack that connects the two 618s? Or is this not required with your 2 x argofet solution?