Should I change my Lifepo4 to a less safe lithium tech like all my other batteries?

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by Adelie

This discussion goes to the heart of cost-benefit analysis.


Does the item under consideration provide sufficient benefit to warrant the costs and risks of having it. Are alternatives better or worse.

The direct cost of purchasing a Li-ion battery is pretty straight forward, what did you pay to buy it?

What are the risks? Catches fire which puts the whole boat at risk.

Propane also is a fire risk and even an explosion risk. People choose to continue to have propane aboard for cooking and mitigate the risk through various means though they can't completely eliminate the risk.

Some people choose to use different means to cook food to eliminate that risk. The alternatives introduce different risks.

There are alternatives to regular Li-ion batteries. Corded tools, LFP batteries, NiMH batteries. They all have different risks.

Corded tools have a different set of risks, tripping hazard, increased risk of electrocution compared to battery tools, still some risk of fire.

LFP batteries don't seem to be available for cordless tools, the decreased capacity and minor change in cost are not economically viable so they aren't made in any significant quantity.

NiMH batteries also have fire risks, at a different level than Li-ion but it is not quantified. Also, tools using these batteries are becoming scarce.

There are videos showing the fires that results from Li-ion tools. It's a new technology and these are concerning. But there are no discussions about what the level of risk is compared to other technologies we accept and live with.

Cost Benefit Analysis of Lithium Batteries vs. Non-Lithium Batteries
Lithium batteries have gained significant popularity and widespread use in various applications due to their superior performance and numerous benefits. A cost benefit analysis comparing lithium batteries with non-lithium batteries can provide insights into the economic advantages of adopting lithium battery technology. Here are the key points to consider:
1. Energy Efficiency: Lithium batteries exhibit higher energy efficiency compared to non-lithium batteries. Their ability to store and discharge energy efficiently translates into reduced energy consumption and cost savings over the long run.
2. Longevity and Lifespan: Lithium batteries generally have a longer lifespan than non-lithium batteries. With their extended cycle life and durability, lithium batteries reduce the frequency of replacements, resulting in lower maintenance and replacement costs.
3. Weight and Size: Lithium batteries are significantly lighter and more compact than their non-lithium counterparts. This characteristic makes them ideal for portable devices, electric vehicles, and other applications where weight and space constraints are crucial. The reduced weight also leads to lower transportation costs.
4. Charging Efficiency: Lithium batteries have a higher charging efficiency and shorter recharge time compared to non-lithium batteries. This advantage translates into reduced downtime and increased productivity for devices or systems reliant on quick recharging, such as electric vehicles and portable electronics.
5. Environmental Impact: Lithium batteries are generally considered more environmentally friendly than non-lithium batteries. They have lower carbon emissions during production and operation. Additionally, lithium batteries are recyclable, and the recovery of valuable materials from used batteries further contributes to sustainability.
6. Total Cost of Ownership: Despite the higher initial purchase cost of lithium batteries, their longer lifespan, reduced maintenance, and improved energy efficiency result in a lower total cost of ownership compared to non-lithium batteries over the product's lifecycle.
In conclusion, a cost benefit analysis indicates that lithium batteries offer significant advantages over non-lithium batteries. These include improved energy efficiency, longer lifespan, compact size, faster charging, reduced environmental impact, and lower total cost of ownership. The initial investment is offset by long-term savings and enhanced performance, making lithium batteries a compelling choice for various applications, ranging from consumer electronics to electric vehicles and renewable energy storage

Ok, I'm not sure that a cost benefit analysis helps as everyone already has them and probably has already increased their fire risk.


What does help in my opinion is that more people are aware of the risk which some contributors to this thread have shown that they are aware and others have shown that they are not aware or do not care.


As a start, I would suggest 4 points:
1: Do not store Lithium batteries under or near flammable items.
2: Do not charge when away from the boat or sleeping.
3: Store in a flexible fireproof bag like this one that I bought from Amazon.
https://www.amazon.de/dp/B0B1VV2CBD?...roduct_details

4: Only buy genuine batteries from the manufacturer.


Perhaps someone has some other ideas as well?

[Chotu]

For the thread. This is a pretty good example video showing different types of fires and explosions that happen with these batteries

I think the video helps you think about what might happen and how to protect yourself and your boat from the possibility

Apart from the immediate health effects, making sure things around the burning battery don’t catch fire is probably the next most important.

Even though you can’t put out the fire with water, you can put out the fire on the surrounding material with water so it’s not a waste.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8nz5ijXcckI

[Jdege]

Originally Posted by wholybee

But you could hopefully through a cell phone or a drill overboard which you can't do with your house bank. They also have fireproof storage bags to keep phones and the like in to protect when the unthinkable happens.

s/through/throw/?

That's generally my take. No lithium onboard except LiFePO4, unless it's small enough to throw overboard.

And by that I mean it's stored where I can see it and reach it. The biggest non-LiFePO4 battery onboard is for my ebike, and while the bike may be buried deep in a lazarette, the battery isn't.

[Shanachie]

A good fireproof storage bag is the solution, as someone mentioned above.


After reading about them in another thread, I bought one for a reasonable amount of money and now store phones, tool batteries, tablets, etc., in it.


It even has a small hole in the bottom of the bag where you can route a charger cord and then close it with Velcro.


It would seem to me that the biggest danger comes from scooters, bikes, etc., that some large cruising boats carry. Many of these seem to be cheaply made and vulnerable to fire due to battery size.

[Jdege]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

A good fireproof storage bag is the solution, as someone mentioned above.

The reviews of such bags I've seen on YouTube aren't good.

Unless the bag is very large relative to the battery, the released gas is going to rupture the bag.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXXBDq8vp2A&t=5m37s

[seadog47]

Originally Posted by Fuss

I've got Lifepo4 batteries as these ones are the safe ones that apparently don't catch on fire easily....So I'm ok!!!



Oh, I've nearly got more non Lifepo4 onboard than Lifepo4.


For example ... rechargeable drill battery, and my rechargeable angle grinder, and my rechargeable vhf. Hmmm, i've also got a rechargeable dingy pump.


Is this a problem...I think it is right???


What shall we all do, I think I'm not alone....

FWIW this was a recent fire by power tool batteries.
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-sta...-drill-battery

[jordanbigel]

It has been my understanding that these small Lithium batteries (power drill, VHF handheld, etc) are most likely to catch fire while being charged, as in being left in the charger indefinitely.

Is this true?

It seems that it is also possible they can just spontaneously catch fire when just sitting on a shelf, even if not in use and not in the charger. Is this true?

If this is the case, what precautions can we take? I have been disconnecting batteries from the charger and just leaving them in a cabinet or a drawer when not in use, but now I am thinking there is no way to prevent them from spontaneously exploding, which is scary.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by jordanbigel

It has been my understanding that these small Lithium batteries (power drill, VHF handheld, etc) are most likely to catch fire while being charged, as in being left in the charger indefinitely.

Is this true?

It seems that it is also possible they can just spontaneously catch fire when just sitting on a shelf, even if not in use and not in the charger. Is this true?

If this is the case, what precautions can we take? I have been disconnecting batteries from the charger and just leaving them in a cabinet or a drawer when not in use, but now I am thinking there is no way to prevent them from spontaneously exploding, which is scary.

They could ignite at any time. However they are vastly more likely to ignite while being charged or when damaged. So not charging unattended and ensuring they can't be damaged (thrown across the boat) greatly reduces the risk. Not using knockoff batteries and chargers is also a good idea.

[FlyingScot]

Whenever we charge any battery, we place a fan to blow directly on it to remove heat. To me this simple idea will prevent most fires.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by jordanbigel

It has been my understanding that these small Lithium batteries (power drill, VHF handheld, etc) are most likely to catch fire while being charged, as in being left in the charger indefinitely.

Is this true?

Not with a high quality battery and charger.

It seems that it is also possible they can just spontaneously catch fire when just sitting on a shelf, even if not in use and not in the charger. Is this true?

If this is the case, what precautions can we take? I have been disconnecting batteries from the charger and just leaving them in a cabinet or a drawer when not in use, but now I am thinking there is no way to prevent them from spontaneously exploding, which is scary.

The main thing for this is manufacturing quality of the individual cells. Cells from Sanyo, Sony, Murata, and other well-known manufacturers are safer than cells from low-cost sources. Sloppy manufacturing leads to defects. Defects can lead to internal shorts over time.


The two other variables you can control are battery age (because you can dispose of batteries approaching the end of their useful life rather than try to eek out another month or two) and history of mechanical damage (because you can dispose of batteries that have been, say, dropped 15 feet onto the deck, even though they still work).


You can also watch out for things like swollen packs, which are always signs of trouble to come.


These are best practices. They reduce your risks but do not eliminate them. My view is that fires start for lots of reasons, lithium batteries are a new concern but not an overwhelming risk. A fact to consider is that the widespread use of lithium batteries has not been accompanied by a statistically significant change in the number or severity of structure or vehicle fires. Your range, grill, shore power system, diesel engine, etc., are a larger risk.

[Fuss]

What are the ABYC standards on this subject? This would be interesting I think….

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Fuss

What are the ABYC standards on this subject? This would be interesting I think….

I don't believe they say anything. ABYC regs are about boat design and construction (and by extension upgrades). A smartphone being carried on the boat isn't part of the boat design anymore than ammunition or explosives carried as cargo are.

I glanced through S-31 "ENVIRONMENTAL CONSIDERATIONS FOR ELECTRONIC SYSTEMS AND COMPONENTS INSTALLED ON BOATS" which is something never looked at before but again it deals with requirements for hardware that is part of the boat.

There is also E-13 "LITHIUM ION BATTERIES" but again these are design and installation requirements for a battery bank as part of the boat. ABYC provides no guidance on allowed or recommended chemistries and treats LFP the same as any other lithium-ion chemistry.

[Fuss]

Hmmm, I would have expected that they covered these as at the end of the day, they are onboard… it’s disappointing that they tolerate confusion….so we have a difference between installed and just happening to be onboard…for example….you are transporting 600ah of lithium for a friend.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Hmmm, I would have expected that they covered these as at the end of the day, they are onboard… it’s disappointing that they tolerate confusion….so we have a difference between installed and just happening to be onboard…for example….you are transporting 600ah of lithium for a friend.

I haven't read every line of every reg so I welcome anyone who finds something different to quote it.

I would add though that ABYC doesn't prohibit the "dangerous" (i.e. NMC/NCA chemistires) lithium batteries even for house banks. In fact it makes no distinction between LFP and other chemistries at all. The only regs are for electrical systems (E-11) battery in general (E-10) and seperate regs for lithium batteries (E-13) without specifics on chemistry.

The defacto adoption of the industry to LFP over other more dangerous chemistries for marine power is not because ABYC prohibits it rather just that it meets the needs of boat owners.

Torquedo for example does make non-LFP propulsion batteries and they aren't prohibited by ABYC regs.

https://www.torqeedo.com/us/en-us/pr.../hybrid-drives

Deep Blue Battery 40
Nominal voltage 352 V
Chemistry Lithium-Ion, NMC
Capacity (usable) 38 kWh