Start your engine with 4 eve lifepo4 cells, lead makes no sense for this task!!

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Holy moses thats 5C for the older type EVE 280AH which are rated 2C peak. You are massivly overloading them and risking an internal short which will be very dangerous as they could catch fire when that happens during cranking....
That they are out of balance is the first warning sign, no wonder with 5C load...what BMS are you running that can withstand 1400CCA? An active balncer with as high as possible amps is a must here which currents like this...the Neey does effectifly the most or the heltec 5A, forget 10A as thats does effectivly less then 5A one.
I think you will be see them much faster dead then a year...
A 3p6S with 35AH grade B LTO yinglong=105AH or 1800Apeak is the right starter battery for that monster, also they need the active balancer, i use 5A Heltec. A 2p6S is borderline and will work for about 10years.
My buddy has an 7l V8 corvette and uses 2p6S without any trouble since 3 years, he killed all other chemistries in under 6 month as the car has also a stereo wit 5500W :-)

Some things that make this possible…
It’s not 5c for an extended time, it’s under a second.
1400cca is for lead with it’s expected very large voltage drop
1400cca translates into 900cca for lifepo4 so 3c not 5c for under a second
Once the engine is turning then we are back to 2.2c.
It has an active balancer
It has a BMS bypass, so it’s not that there is no BMS, there is a BMS doing BMS type things. However with so much capacity, 280ah, you could survive with no BMS.
There is no internal short possibility as the battery never gets hot. Lifepo4 don’t catch on fire so they say right?

I will be very interested to see if the opinions on this forum are right over time.

But we should not forget, the battery is not designed to start your engine each day. It is designed to crank your motor over repeatedly on the day that the motor does not start.

I tested with this scenario, not the sunny day instant start scenario.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Fuss

1400cca translates into 900cca for lifepo4 so 3c not 5c for under a second

How does that logic work?

I am a big proponent of LFP but amps are amps.

[Fuss]

The voltage drop is a lot less with Lifepo4, so amps are affected by the voltage…why do you think these lithium emergency starters have such small batteries…try that with a lead battery and see how you get on.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

The voltage drop is a lot less with Lifepo4, so amps are affected by the voltage…why do you think these lithium emergency starters have such small batteries…try that with a lead battery and see how you get on.

You are comparing apples to fruit salad...

These little emergency starters have Li-on cells, mostly the 18650 which have an extremly high energy density and can do high C rate peak but can catch fire easlily, thats in all this Tesla that frequently burning down....
Your EVE are Lifepo4, different chemistry with much lower energy density and much safer but can only do low C-rates.

You are doing experiments and making statements without even understanding what you have build and installed yourself, what the cells you are using can and cannot do.
Very very dangerous...especially 24 cells with 280AH, thats a beast of bank and has enourmous amount of energy stored.
Your torchering 4 of these cells with 5C and massivly overloading them, if a cell short due ro massive overload happing during cranking you highly likely have a fire (one of the highly unlikely events if you have a poorly designed and installed system where also a lifepo4 can catch fire) or at least a swiming gas chamber....

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

You are comparing apples to fruit salad...

These little emergency starters have Li-on cells, mostly the 18650 which have an extremly high energy density and can do high C rate peak but can catch fire easlily, thats in all this Tesla that frequently burning down....
Your EVE are Lifepo4, different chemistry with much lower energy density and much safer but can only do low C-rates.

You are doing experiments and making statements without even understanding what you have build and installed yourself, what the cells you are using can and cannot do.
Very very dangerous...especially 24 cells with 280AH, thats a beast of bank and has enourmous amount of energy stored.
Your torchering 4 of these cells with 5C and massivly overloading them, if a cell short due ro massive overload happing during cranking you highly likely have a fire (one of the highly unlikely events if you have a poorly designed and installed system where also a lifepo4 can catch fire) or at least a swiming gas chamber....

Thanks for the comments,
Firstly some emergency starters are Lifepo4, they typically are 35ah and produce 900cca. Sometimes even less that 35ah, so imagine the stress on these to produce 900CCA, 900CCA from a small battery, thats something!, I'm taking 900CCA from a 280ah battery, a huge difference.



Next, the Eve 280 can pulse 3C for 20 seconds


Next, its not 5C as I explained before, its slightly more than 3C. So no massive overload. Voltage drop plays a big role in the CCA delivered. You should do some experiments sometime.



Next, Generally it is the BMS that restricts the discharge current. Lifepo4 do not damage with a higher discharge current unless it is 1:significantly higher and 2: for an extended period of time.


Next, The Eve cells show no signs of damage or stress so far....of course after all the testing, the motor starts instantly and no longer is cranked for an extended period of time.



Some more things for you to think about, now that you know a little more about the EVE cells pulse capabilities and also now that you know that there are Lifepo4 small ah emergency starters producing 900CCA.
1- Winston make a 60ah 12v Lifepo4 Start battery that produces more than 900CCA, it has a balancer but no BMS.
2- Dakota Lithium make a Lifepo4 60ah 1000CCA start battery They have a 1 second pulse so I wonder how they get on when the motor does not start.


So what's going on with these companies, no BMS, 1 sec pulse for a starter battery ... really!..they are looking nearly as bad as me CaptainRivet, look what they are doing... experiments and selling batteries without even understanding what they have built, what the cells they are using can and cannot do.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by bill good

The information I provided is not false. It is fact. These cells are not manufactured for solar by EVE but have failed to pass for the intended use & sold off in lots for reuse in solar. This thread was about using these cells without a BMS for starting battery which IMHO is not the best practice for these cells. Not sure if any cell balance was used in this case. There is no published specs from EVE for these recycled cells. Only by resellers.

If I had this information I would have used different cells for the battery I built 18mths ago.

Please copy a link for the source you have stating this. My info is from CEO of a NPO that builds powerwalls and EVs since 17 years and gets twice a month an EVE container directly from factory. They do their own Q&C.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Thanks for the comments,
Firstly some emergency starters are Lifepo4, they typically are 35ah and produce 900cca. Sometimes even less that 35ah, so imagine the stress on these to produce 900CCA, 900CCA from a small battery, thats something!, I'm taking 900CCA from a 280ah battery, a huge difference.



Next, the Eve 280 can pulse 3C for 20 seconds


Next, its not 5C as I explained before, its slightly more than 3C. So no massive overload. Voltage drop plays a big role in the CCA delivered. You should do some experiments sometime.



Next, Generally it is the BMS that restricts the discharge current. Lifepo4 do not damage with a higher discharge current unless it is 1:significantly higher and 2: for an extended period of time.


Next, The Eve cells show no signs of damage or stress so far....of course after all the testing, the motor starts instantly and no longer is cranked for an extended period of time.



Some more things for you to think about, now that you know a little more about the EVE cells pulse capabilities and also now that you know that there are Lifepo4 small ah emergency starters producing 900CCA.
1- Winston make a 60ah 12v Lifepo4 Start battery that produces more than 900CCA, it has a balancer but no BMS.
2- Dakota Lithium make a Lifepo4 60ah 1000CCA start battery They have a 1 second pulse so I wonder how they get on when the motor does not start.


So what's going on with these companies, no BMS, 1 sec pulse for a starter battery ... really!..they are looking nearly as bad as me CaptainRivet, look what they are doing... experiments and selling batteries without even understanding what they have built, what the cells they are using can and cannot do.

All you are stating is bla bla from theory and different spec sheets mixing up chemistry, specially build starter batteries for this purpose stating they have Lifepo4 inside but what’s actually and additionally inside (eg a supercapacitor providing the peak current) you have no glue or pulling random Chinese stuff that can do this and this on paper...
Winston are no lifepo4 and state of the Art battery that cost 3x an EVE cell in the Same capacity just mentioning this as one clear fact.

My infos are from using them myself since around 8 years in different setup and my buddy who is the CEO of an NPO that producing powerwall and EVs since 17 years and they work with EVE as one of their supplier. So you can be sure they tested these cells and have a vast experience on them.
They are also building powerwalls with LTOs which will be the correct chemistry to start your 6l engine.

Till now you didn‘t tell us what’s the rating of your starter as the fact you should use 2x900CCA batteries does not tell us what’s really consumed and which surges your starter can produce.

[CaptainRivet]

EVE 280AH cost as much as a comparable AGM lead battery and there are reason why they are so cheap.
There is only one thing that these cells can do well: store and deliver high capacity in low C rates. The rest they can do for a very limited amount of cycles because they have a lot of energy stored but will derarte and die quickly.
That these cells are not made for high current delivery you can already see on the terminals M6 with a depth of <6mm or welded 6mm for a 280AH cell.
The Winston have M10=8.5mm because the really can do 6C peak with this rating in 300AH, yinglong 30AH LTO has M14 or 12mm Terminals because they can do 10C constant and 20C peak for 30 seconds straight so you get real 600A out from a 30AH cell.

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

All you are stating is bla bla from theory and different spec sheets mixing up chemistry, specially build starter batteries for this purpose stating they have Lifepo4 inside but what’s actually and additionally inside (eg a supercapacitor providing the peak current) you have no glue or pulling random Chinese stuff that can do this and this on paper...
Winston are no lifepo4 and state of the Art battery that cost 3x an EVE cell in the Same capacity just mentioning this as one clear fact.

Really CaptainRivet, Sometimes I think you are having us all on ....



The Winston 12v starter battery has no supercapacitor built in, the Winston is Lifepo4, the Winston does not cost 3x an EVE cell, the 12v Winston costs 262 Euros + VAT on the GWL website, The Eve 100ah equivalent is 65€ x 4 = 260€ plus VAT on the NKON website. So the same price roughly.

Your one clear fact CaptainRivet is looking decidedly unclear.

Pulling Random Chinese stuff CaptainRivet...I'm surprised that you ever chose EVE cells for yourself...you do know that they come from China right

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Really CaptainRivet, Sometimes I think you are having us all on ....

The Winston 12v starter battery has no supercapacitor built in, the Winston is Lifepo4, the Winston does not cost 3x an EVE cell, the 12v Winston costs 262 Euros + VAT on the GWL website, The Eve 100ah equivalent is 65€ x 4 = 260€ plus VAT on the NKON website. So the same price roughly.

Your one clear fact CaptainRivet is looking decidedly unclear.

Pulling Random Chinese stuff CaptainRivet...I'm surprised that you ever chose EVE cells for yourself...you do know that they come from China right

The Winston start batteries are rated for a 10C impulse current and have the internal cell structure, terminals etc. to support that. The Eve cells do not, this is why they don’t have the same 10C rating.

You can twist your story all day but it doesn’t change a thing and you already see the consequences of your choice with the imbalance between cells.

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The Winston start batteries are rated for a 10C impulse current and have the internal cell structure, terminals etc. to support that. The Eve cells do not, this is why they don’t have the same 10C rating.

You can twist your story all day but it doesn’t change a thing and you already see the consequences of your choice with the imbalance between cells.

Thats right, The Winston are more robust and are 10C, I think for 10 seconds and again 1 minute later after resting.
These 12v Winston batteries have a balancer built in to stop them going out of balance but they have no BMS.


I am not pulling 10C from a 60ah battery, I am pulling 3C from a 280ah battery for under 1 second. This battery allows this for at least 10 seconds. It also has an active balancer and so far this works fine, just like the 60ah Winston.


There is another big advantage that I will put forward in another thread once more time has passed without these Eve cells becoming damaged or losing capacity.


But for now, its clear what the forum members think, which is all good information.
We will see what happens long term.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

The voltage drop is a lot less with Lifepo4, so amps are affected by the voltage…why do you think these lithium emergency starters have such small batteries…try that with a lead battery and see how you get on.

That’s not the voltage drop, that is the current capability delivery of each battery called c-rates that makes that happen. The voltage drop is caused by Peukert effect and high internal resistance of a lead which rises the current further What is actual Need due to losses.

3 pages of Blabla around and trying to explain side effects what what is just really needed 0.
Tell us finally your spec of the starter, that’s all we really need to tell you what your cells need to be speced to survive. If it’s a 1,5kw starter a 280AH EvE can handle for 1000 cycles but a 3.5kw not. And yes there are 6l gasoline engines with 1,5kw Starters.

What is your actual Setup:
Brand, model, age and hours of your cryptic 6l engine
Specs of the Starters
Cable specs from starter to battery
Which sort of BMS, brand name model, how does it measure the current and what is used interrupt current in LVC and current overload for the starter

[Nicholson58]

Our system after 660 AH, 24 volt Firefly system failed at 4 years.
630 AH LiFePo house bank with 110 AH lithium high output starter bank, all in parallel. 1983 vintage 115 HP Westerbeke 6-cylinder tractor engine.

Solar, 660 watts
Generator, 12.5 kw with piggyback backup alternator
Victron charger/inverter 3.5 kw

Charging 80 amps at 27 volts

Starting is instant. Inrush is 80-120 amps.

The parallel starting batteries were added so that no lead acid batteries would be needed and also no DC-DC charger for the starting battery.

Blue Heron. Our very helpful agent, Hank George.
hank@starboardlanding.com

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Thats right, The Winston are more robust and are 10C, I think for 10 seconds and again 1 minute later after resting.
These 12v Winston batteries have a balancer built in to stop them going out of balance but they have no BMS.


I am not pulling 10C from a 60ah battery, I am pulling 3C from a 280ah battery for under 1 second. This battery allows this for at least 10 seconds. It also has an active balancer and so far this works fine, just like the 60ah Winston.


There is another big advantage that I will put forward in another thread once more time has passed without these Eve cells becoming damaged or losing capacity.


But for now, its clear what the forum members think, which is all good information.
We will see what happens long term.

Just as a side note again facts:
a 280AH EVE from.your genration of EVE is street price 130$, the 300AHA Winston cell is 400$ at GWL, factor 3 as stated
Winston are LiFeYPO4 (Lithium Iron Yttrium Phosphate and NOT lifepo4, close but a different chemistry that can up to 10C and charging in minus temps while Lifepo4 can't.

I give up...Hopefully you only destroy the cells in a short time and your boat is not burning down but the possibility is high it does....

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Thats right, The Winston are more robust and are 10C, I think for 10 seconds and again 1 minute later after resting.
These 12v Winston batteries have a balancer built in to stop them going out of balance but they have no BMS.


I am not pulling 10C from a 60ah battery, I am pulling 3C from a 280ah battery for under 1 second. This battery allows this for at least 10 seconds. It also has an active balancer and so far this works fine, just like the 60ah Winston.


There is another big advantage that I will put forward in another thread once more time has passed without these Eve cells becoming damaged or losing capacity.


But for now, its clear what the forum members think, which is all good information.
We will see what happens long term.

I give up...Hopefully you only destroy the cells in a short time and your boat is not burning down but the possibility is high it does....