Start your engine with 4 eve lifepo4 cells, lead makes no sense for this task!!

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Marc13

There are several manufacturers of LFP batteries that clearly state that their cells should not be discharged at full current. If you look carefully, you will find them resold by major brands under their own names. I am enclosing an extract from the very clear and precise ETC manufacturer's instructions.


ETC batteries are suitable for domestic use in a moderate temperature room. They are clearly unsuitable on a boat even for service batteries. Above all, I wanted to make it understood that commercial LFPs have very significant differences and that it is absolutely necessary to know the manufacturer of the elements whose instructions must be read to know if those which interest us are adapted to our use or not. A battery designed for a certain application will not necessarily be suitable for our boats. This sometimes escapes some sellers on the internet and also a lot of buyers. By looking, we can see that the price does not prejudge much. You really need to find out who made the items being sold and check the manufacturer's specifications.

Sure these cells can be used in a boat as service, wouldn,t use a 228AH from 4cells but eg 3P4S is definitly not a problem. Thats 700AH and classic 2,4kw multi is 250A load, 0.3C spread by 3 so 0.1C per cell which they can deliver across the whole range.


Thats really a very complete set of specs, even SOC to T and c-rates. Its rare you get that, eg EVE is not supplying it in that detail. Thats why you have to rely on additional sources what they can do and not, like longtherm use or in my case a friend who is using them in storage walls and tested them beyond factory specs. And thats the problem of Fuss as EVE doesn't supply the doc like ETE here.

But doesn't matter which Lifepo4 or Winston:
Discharge below 2,5V and they are dead
Charge them above 4,2V and they are dead (and a faulty regulator delivers >18V=dead)
It doesn't matter how well they matched or you see diagrams that go above this voltages, thats the hard limits on every LFP means Lifepo4 and its dervates like Winston. The winston won't catch fire and burn your but will gas out...well and its expensive if they die due to a faulty regulator.

Thats why you always need a BMS that does that per cell voltage and protects the cell.
On VERY simple system with a high end matched Winston cells 4S like Marcs that can be done with high level of security by a battery monitor BMV 712 or a like on total Battery voltage instead cell voltage to cut off with its relay output if these values. But thats needed And thats what Winston writes also in their specs that the battery must be monitored and controlled by a suitable system, in this case a suitable battery monitor acting as BMS on total battery voltage instead on cell level.

LTO don't as you can discharge it to 0V (with the loss of some cycle life, you have enough) and the overcharge voltage is >20V on a 6S pack which a faulty regulator cannot reach. Thats why you can run them with an active balancer without BMS as the active balancer makes sure you don't have high cell deviations. They have high C-rates and are the perfect starter chemistry, not LFP. And without damaging them you can treat them like an LFP bank means LFP service and LTO with the same charge sources and values in paralell. LTO are then 85% SoC when the LFP is at 100% but that doesn't matter actually perfect total resting volatge for them (bank, not cell voltages)

[mvweebles]

Antigravity Batteries (LiFePO4 chemistry) have been making a splash as start batteries in performance vehicles up to 600hp, including high compression racing motorcycles.

This one is their largest. 2000 cranking amps. 17 lbs. $1200. And has a reserve "re-start" capacity in case of accidental discharge.

https://antigravitybatteries.com/pro...tive/ag-h7-rs/

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Antigravity Batteries (LiFePO4 chemistry) have been making a splash as start batteries in performance vehicles up to 600hp, including high compression racing motorcycles.

This one is their largest. 2000 cranking amps. 17 lbs. $1200. And has a reserve "re-start" capacity in case of accidental discharge.

https://antigravitybatteries.com/pro...tive/ag-h7-rs/

Great batteries, i had the 40AH version in my Audi R8 for 8 years...extensive security features. Restart capacity simple, the BMS cuts off at 3V so you have still about 5AH to start till 2,5V. Thats what i recommend too to put LVC at 3.0V when you use your as hybrid bank starter and house and connect starter directly to bank with a breaker. Exactly thats what the antigravty does internally too.

[Fuss]

Ok, so i think we are at a good point here.
Antigravity 40ah lifepo4 start battery. 1500 cold cranking amps. really , can you believe what im writing here… lifepo4 40ah 1500 cca…. this is 37C … 37C for lifepo4, but even more amazing is that Captain Rivet has known about these for 7 years. Yet despite this he chooses to promote LITO batteries that would never beat out 37C . but ok, let’s not get too complicated here… what we are really discussing that it’s not ok to use huge 280ah eve cells as start batteries but it’s completely ok to use tiny 40ah antigravity lifepo4 batteries up to 1500 CCA.

[Fuss]

oh, the Eve 280ah cells are not going out of balance and seem quite happy starting my 1400cca specked diesel.
moaning about my 280ah eve cells being massively overloaded but accepting 40ah lifepo4 is ok for 1500cca… pathetic!

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Ok, so i think we are at a good point here.
Antigravity 40ah lifepo4 start battery. 1500 cold cranking amps. really , can you believe what im writing here… lifepo4 40ah 1500 cca…. this is 37C … 37C for lifepo4, but even more amazing is that Captain Rivet has known about these for 7 years. Yet despite this he chooses to promote LITO batteries that would never beat out 37C . but ok, let’s not get too complicated here… what we are really discussing that it’s not ok to use huge 280ah eve cells as start batteries but it’s completely ok to use tiny 40ah antigravity lifepo4 batteries up to 1500 CCA.

Different cells that are made for short high discharge start appications and not for storage, thats why the capacity is low but CCA high. To reach 37C they most likely use supercapacitors additionally which supply the surge and high CCA.l, recharged by Lifepo4.
Same chemistry doesn't mean the cells inside of a Antigravity and EVE cells are the same which they are by far not.
400hp from a Porsche compared to 400hp from an American muscle engine is also not the same...
Lifepo4 is like fruits antigravity is apple and EVE is a banana and you make fruit salat.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

oh, the Eve 280ah cells are not going out of balance and seem quite happy starting my 1400cca specked diesel.
moaning about my 280ah eve cells being massively overloaded but accepting 40ah lifepo4 is ok for 1500cca… pathetic!

I have have killed EVE and also an antigravity 30AH one, the EVE would have given up much earlier...
The antigravity (used as the only battery in an Audi R8) died after 9 month from the constant current needed while it easly started a cold V10 at -10 degrees celcius. Then i put the 40AH and it made it 8 years...
eve is storage cell with a lot capacity but very little C-Rate....exactly the opposite of an antigravity.
The only thing thats spec on a diesel for starting is the wattage of your starter, not the CCA as thats a recommendation which is big difference.
And the only thing thats pathetic its your way communicating, doesn't matter how you twist its wrong as Jedi wrote correctly.

Then 4th time how many watts does your starter need?
You even don't now that...
The CCA that is recommended says only marginal about what your starter really needs and you have no glue how much additional headroom the recommended CCA has and at what temperature.
Put a fluke ampmeter on starter cable and report how much current flows when you start...then you know.
I bet its below 300A and you have a 2,5 or 3kw starter....

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Different cells that are made for short high discharge start appications and not for storage, thats why the capacity is low but CCA high. To reach 37C they most likely use supercapacitors additionally which supply the surge and high CCA.l, recharged by Lifepo4.
Same chemistry doesn't mean the cells inside of a Antigravity and EVE cells are the same which they are by far not.
400hp from a Porsche compared to 400hp from an American muscle engine is also not the same...
Lifepo4 is like fruits antigravity is apple and EVE is a banana and you make fruit salat.

No supercapacitors CaptainRivet, just Lifepo4, you should know this, you had them 8 years!!

The eve cells are showing no stress or balance issues after 9 months.
You said they would be dead within a year. 3 months to go…

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

No supercapacitors CaptainRivet, just Lifepo4, you should know this, you had them 8 years!!

The eve cells are showing no stress or balance issues after 9 months.
You said they would be dead within a year. 3 months to go…

How do you know no supercapacitors, did you tear one apart?
No Lifepo4 can do 37C...so either they are ION or supercapacitor inside or an other chemistry.
Obviously 8 years old product was a LI-ion chemistry even they claimed its Lifepo4 and is different to todays, it had just 800CCA.

If that 280AH EVE has no imbalance or damage after 9 month (how do you know, did you make a capacity test?) that means you have a 2,5kw starter that uses around 180A and has a peak surge of maybe 300-400A and nowhere near 1500CCA. With even real 1000CCA it would be dead under 3 month...

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

How do you know no supercapacitors, did you tear one apart?
No Lifepo4 can do 37C...so either they are ION or supercapacitor inside or an other chemistry.
Obviously 8 years old product was a LI-ion chemistry even they claimed its Lifepo4 and is different to todays, it had just 800CCA.

If that 280AH EVE has no imbalance or damage after 9 month (how do you know, did you make a capacity test?) that means you have a 2,5kw starter that uses around 180A and has a peak surge of maybe 300-400A and nowhere near 1500CCA. With even real 1000CCA it would be dead under 3 month...

no, it was never li-ion it was lifepo4, you are saying antigravity lied!
so now it’s ok if the starter is 2.5kw and has a peak surge of 400ah, then it’s ok for the eve cells for 9 mths and then they will be badly damaged…. i’m not sure if your question above means that but we are making some steps forward as your view seems to be softening from massively overloaded and catch on fire to will kill them within 3 months if it’s a real 1000 cca.

earlier in the thread i wrote that it’s 3500watt starter and i wrote that is draws from eve lf280k cells at 12v 2.2C while cranking and 900 ah peak for under a second.

so they should be dead after 3 mths as it’s 900ah peak.
But here they are still going

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

no, it was never li-ion it was lifepo4, you are saying antigravity lied!
so now it’s ok if the starter is 2.5kw and has a peak surge of 400ah, then it’s ok for the eve cells for 9 mths and then they will be badly damaged…. i’m not sure if your question above means that but we are making some steps forward as your view seems to be softening from massively overloaded and catch on fire to will kill them within 3 months if it’s a real 1000 cca.

earlier in the thread i wrote that it’s 3500watt starter and i wrote that is draws from eve lf280k cells at 12v 2.2C while cranking and 900 ah peak for under a second.

so they should be dead after 3 mths as it’s 900ah peak.
But here they are still going

Nonits still not ok, just being a 2,5kw starter with 180A and 400A peak explains why its not dead after 3 month and not even out of balance after 9 month, would have been dead if 1400CCA what you claimed it can do.
It will work if peak is around 1C=280A for frequent use which is what the EVE really can do without significant reduction in lifespan. Thats what a 2kw starter on a newer engine will do. And yes a 40AH winston cell pack would do the job what a 280AH EVE cannot.

Answer my questions, and we can finally answer your questions properly.
no we don't make any steps forward, backwards
You just read what you want and twist it, you are still wrong.....

[CaptainRivet]

Just to add yes the old antigravity 40AH was a LI-IoN dervate and antigravity market them as lithium without specing exactly what it was, so no lie.
That was for a race car where every gramm of weight counts and thats why we first tried 30AH knowing its on the absolute limit...and lost.
We chose a 40AH antigravity over a LTO because the Antigravity was still lighter then LTO 6 cells and 2nd we didn't have the space for 6 LTo cells at the spot we needed the battery to be installed but antigravity fitted.

[Fuss]

Nearly 10 months starting on Eve 280 cells Captainrivet for a 1400cca spec’d engine, only 2 mths to go before your dead in a year prediction runs out. So why does it still work and why will they not be dead in a year, or 2 years.
I will explain in 2 months but if you like Captainrivet you have a chance to explain here because I am sure that you have done some internet research now and can begin to understand how this is possible.
It’s important because the answer will make it very clear why starting your motor with lifepo4 is so superior to your constant promotion of LTO batteries and then we can lay the LTO start battery constant promotion to rest.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Nearly 10 months starting on Eve 280 cells Captainrivet for a 1400cca spec’d engine, only 2 mths to go before your dead in a year prediction runs out. So why does it still work and why will they not be dead in a year, or 2 years.
I will explain in 2 months but if you like Captainrivet you have a chance to explain here because I am sure that you have done some internet research now and can begin to understand how this is possible.
It’s important because the answer will make it very clear why starting your motor with lifepo4 is so superior to your constant promotion of LTO batteries and then we can lay the LTO start battery constant promotion to rest.

1400CCA is way overstated and still don't get or better constantly ignore that CCA is a recommendation (under which conditions -30c in antartica or +40 in Dubai??? You never stated too) and no spec.
You never put a clamp meter during start and stated how much current real flows...

The current spec that an engine need is defined by the specs of the starter and not CCA.
You have a 2.5kw@12V starter and the correct Spec is somewhere at 180-220A constant and peak surge 400 till 500A which equals to a 500 till max 650CCA for a lead battery, very conservative a 850CCA for a lead which suffers from Peukert effect BUT NOT 1400CCA.

EvE 280AH have a 2C peak rating means 560A peak, so 500A is below that's why they worked for 10 month and will survive another year too. At 1400A or even 700A they would have been dead long ago.

Well and regarding LTO, a 40AH LTO 1p6s still starting my buddies 7lV8 corvette Z06 after 5 years...Surprise its a 2,5kw starter too thats measured at 190A constant and 450A peak at 10 degree celsius cold engine start...sounds familiar...
My Mini r52 LTO 20AH since 06/2005 and still has 17AH of its originally 18AH because only charged to 2.6V per cell =15.6V which is approx 90% SOC, never at 100%SOC in 18 years.

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

1400CCA is way overstated and still don't get or better constantly ignore that CCA is a recommendation (under which conditions -30c in antartica or +40 in Dubai??? You never stated too) and no spec.
You never put a clamp meter during start and stated how much current real flows...

The current spec that an engine need is defined by the specs of the starter and not CCA.
You have a 2.5kw@12V starter and the correct Spec is somewhere at 180-220A constant and peak surge 400 till 500A which equals to a 500 till max 650CCA for a lead battery, very conservative a 850CCA for a lead which suffers from Peukert effect BUT NOT 1400CCA.

EvE 280AH have a 2C peak rating means 560A peak, so 500A is below that's why they worked for 10 month and will survive another year too. At 1400A or even 700A they would have been dead long ago.

Well and regarding LTO, a 40AH LTO 1p6s still starting my buddies 7lV8 corvette Z06 after 5 years...Surprise its a 2,5kw starter too thats measured at 190A constant and 450A peak at 10 degree celsius cold engine start...sounds familiar...

Congratulations Captainrivet, you’ve been doing your research. I am impressed. So, as my engine is classed as a big diesel then it it clear that for most forumites LTO is not the best solution for their smaller diesels and Lifepo4 would be much more suitable.
So let’s stop now with the LTO promotion as this is clearly not in the interests of most forum members with smaller diesels than mine.

Yes yes, we’ve all got a buddy, but what we are really interested in is personal experience, not some hearsay from some buddy.,, we’ve all heard this before.