Start your engine with 4 eve lifepo4 cells, lead makes no sense for this task!!

[CaptainRivet]

Regarding starting an engine a 280AH Eve or a 40AH LTO yinglong are about the same, with LTO have a bit more const and also peak current, so more reserves...

4x280AH EVE, street price deliver to Europe 180 per cell so 4x180=720Euro for a starter that last ... to maybe 5 years even 10...best case 72Euro per year costs. Works 0-55 degress, dead if below 2.5V or above 4V. Catches fire if overcharged long, means a defective alternator regulator can make it catch fire at 16V as its reaching 18-19V...

6x40AH yonglong LTO, street price is 60-90Euro so 6x60-90=360-540Euro for 30 years, per year 11Euro till 18Euro.
Works -30 till 80 degrees celcius, can be diacharged to 0V with some cycle life loss, dead if overcharged at 3.8V a long time, thats 6x3.8V=22,8V in a 12V system means even a defective alternator regulator cannot cause voltage that high, thats why you don't need a BMS. Never catches fire, drill in them while usage...safest chemistry on the market.

So LTO is superior to Lifepo4 in any aspect except of 1, weight but for a 40AH bank at 12V thats 800g more then Lifepo4.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Congratulations Captainrivet, you’ve been doing your research. I am impressed. So, as my engine is classed as a big diesel then it it clear that for most forumites LTO is not the best solution for their smaller diesels and Lifepo4 would be much more suitable.
So let’s stop now with the LTO promotion as this is clearly not in the interests of most forum members with smaller diesels than mine.

Yes yes, we’ve all got a buddy, but what we are really interested in is personal experience, not some hearsay from some buddy.,, we’ve all heard this before.

Don't need to do research, working with lifepo4 and LTo.since 20years, i know what they can do (and not)in the real world...not from sofa researched on chinese spec sheets which in a lot cases are not worth the paper they get printed on...
We tortured the LTO in car hifi competition and its from another world what they can handle, a Lifepo4 will be long dead before and a fire hazard...

A 40AH LTO easily starts your engine, it can handle a 3,5kw starter for its entire cycle life while a 280EVE a 3kw max. For 1 -5 years as they suffer a lot used frequently above 0.5C constant...

The only Lifepo4 derviate i know are Winstons cells which get quite close to LTOs with the advantage having more capacity for approximately the the same weight and size.
Negative price, just don't make sense for a pure starter but a hybrid bank they are perfect if you have big space constraints.

[Dorin]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Don't need to do research, working with lifepo4 and LTo.since 20years, i know what they can do (and not)in the real world...not from sofa researched on chinese spec sheets which in a lot cases are not worth the paper they get printed on...
We tortured the LTO in car hifi competition and its from another world what they can handle, a Lifepo4 will be long dead before and a fire hazard...

A 40AH LTO easily starts your engine, it can handle a 3,5kw starter for its entire cycle life while a 280EVE a 3kw max. For 1 -5 years as they suffer a lot used frequently above 0.5C constant...

The only Lifepo4 derviate i know are Winstons cells which get quite close to LTOs with the advantage having more capacity for approximately the the same weight and size.
Negative price, just don't make sense for a pure starter but a hybrid bank they are perfect if you have big space constraints.

Update with the eve280 starting battery?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Dorin

Update with the eve280 starting battery?

It turned out FUSS had a much smaller wattage starter which is then well inside the 2C spec of the cells. So it works fine. How much sense it makes taking a 280AH as pure starter which needs below 1AH to start is another story...wasting 279AH means just add it to your house and start from house.

The stated CCA for this starter with a lead was way overspeced for the starters wattage.
So for checking if your Lifepo4 can start the engine you need to find out the wattage of your starter. The resulting surge will be max 3.5x the constant draw. If it still starts put a fluke meter on the starter and see what surge you got and how much wattage your glow plug uses additional. Most likely the cells will make it but the BMS won't.

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

It turned out FUSS had a much smaller wattage starter which is then well inside the 2C spec of the cells. So it works fine. How much sense it makes taking a 280AH as pure starter which needs below 1AH to start is another story...wasting 279AH means just add it to your house and start from house.

The stated CCA for this starter with a lead was way overspeced for the starters wattage.
So for checking if your Lifepo4 can start the engine you need to find out the wattage of your starter. The resulting surge will be max 3.5x the constant draw. If it still starts put a fluke meter on the starter and see what surge you got and how much wattage your glow plug uses additional. Most likely the cells will make it but the BMS won't.

Really Captainrivet still commenting on things you know nothing about…
The most prolific reparroter of information, always pretending it’s his own experience and here he goes again…
My starter is 3.5kw and probably bigger than 90% of the forum members starters and you wish to say that my starter turned out to be a much smaller wattage starter that now is ok for Eve280 cells. What a lot of back peddling, how would you know it’s not even your boat.
In the beginning it was all about crazy , stupid , no knowledge at all, batteries exploding and boat catching on fire, me being in lala land and not knowing anything and a whole lot more…. And now, it’s all ok.
This thread is a really good example of how little some people know and how much advice they give out.

Yes, it’s been a year and it works fine…actually the delta on this battery has the best balance of all the batteries , of which I have 4.

Your advice is just reparroted information.

A Maxwell supercap is much better suited to starting big engines than LTO.
The Winston Yttrium is just BS, the Yttrium does nothing, it’s just marketing. The Winston is a very robustly built battery though.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Really Captainrivet still commenting on things you know nothing about…
The most prolific reparroter of information, always pretending it’s his own experience and here he goes again…
My starter is 3.5kw and probably bigger than 90% of the forum members starters and you wish to say that my starter turned out to be a much smaller wattage starter that now is ok for Eve280 cells. What a lot of back peddling, how would you know it’s not even your boat.
In the beginning it was all about crazy , stupid , no knowledge at all, batteries exploding and boat catching on fire, me being in lala land and not knowing anything and a whole lot more…. And now, it’s all ok.
This thread is a really good example of how little some people know and how much advice they give out.

Yes, it’s been a year and it works fine…actually the delta on this battery has the best balance of all the batteries , of which I have 4.

Your advice is just reparroted information.

A Maxwell supercap is much better suited to starting big engines than LTO.
The Winston Yttrium is just BS, the Yttrium does nothing, it’s just marketing. The Winston is a very robustly built battery though.

Ah now its a 3500W runing on a 1p4S 280AH Eve means 12V??? Or is now suddenly a 24V starter an we have 1p8S???
Over 7 pages you where not able to clearly state the whole setup with all parameter needed....and not able to just put a clamp meter on and telling us the permanent and peak current that setup draws...just that 1400CCA is needed which you claim 280AH EVE Gen2 can suppy which far outside there spec of 2C=560A

The Yttrium in the Winston cells are at least responsible to be able to charge below 0 degrees celcius where Lifepo4 are not able to. Thats a fact...if the Yittrium supports the high C-rate charge and discharge winston has is not really proven but most likely the case as thats the only difference to similar build lifepo4...if not explain why winston have doubled c-rates then normal Lifepo4 the same size. Happy to learn.

Explain why a maxwell supercap is better suited to start large engines then LTo and please FACTS...
I know LTO but no maxwell supercaps....

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Ah now its a 3500W runing on a 1p4S 280AH Eve means 12V??? Or is now suddenly a 24V starter an we have 1p8S???
Over 7 pages you where not able to clearly state the whole setup with all parameter needed....and not able to just put a clamp meter on and telling us the permanent and peak current that setup draws...just that 1400CCA is needed which you claim 280AH EVE Gen2 can suppy which far outside there spec of 2C=560A

The Yttrium in the Winston cells are at least responsible to be able to charge below 0 degrees celcius where Lifepo4 are not able to. Thats a fact...if the Yittrium supports the high C-rate charge and discharge winston has is not really proven but most likely the case as thats the only difference to similar build lifepo4...if not explain why winston have doubled c-rates then normal Lifepo4 the same size. Happy to learn.

Explain why a maxwell supercap is better suited to start large engines then LTo and please FACTS...
I know LTO but no maxwell supercaps....

Yittrium is ********. Rod Collins explained this in a recent video. Winston are lying to you.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

Yittrium is ********. Rod Collins explained this in a recent video. Winston are lying to you.

Then Rod should explain how winston can charge below 0 and why they have double C rate then others, the only difference i see when comparing a cut open winston to a Calb or Eve is Yittrium and a siginficant weight difference the winston being 15% heavier in same measured capacity.
Rod is very knowledgeable but he has no R&D lab and eg extracted the Yttrium to see what happens then. So his statements regarding Yittrium i would take with a big grain of sought here.

You can buy this article explaining you what Yittrium is used for to improve Lifepo4
https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/arti.../ta/c3ta11665d

[Wandering1]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Then Rod should explain how winston can charge below 0 and why they have double C rate then others, the only difference i see when comparing a cut open winston to a Calb or Eve is Yittrium and a siginficant weight difference the winston being 15% heavier in same measured capacity.
Rod is very knowledgeable but he has no R&D lab and eg extracted the Yttrium to see what happens then. So his statements regarding Yittrium i would take with a big grain of sought here.

You can buy this article explaining you what Yittrium is used for to improve Lifepo4
https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/arti.../ta/c3ta11665d

Winston cells were 15% heavier before they added yittrium.
If you search Yittrium scolarly articles, you can find nothing that suggests they have any benefit stopping electrolyte from freezing.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Wandering1

Winston cells were 15% heavier before they added yittrium.
If you search Yittrium scolarly articles, you can find nothing that suggests they have any benefit stopping electrolyte from freezing.

Buy this article and you will be enlighted about Yittrium. The 15% weight difference is now, just compare the 200AH (which have 230AH) with the 230AH calb (which also have plastic case) or 230AH EVE where its 20% as EVE have a light alu casing. Winston have 15% more capacity then rated, thats one trick they used so you have to take this out and compare measured capacity....and then its 15%.
And yes Winston charge in sub -10 degrees, have several friends in Switzerland in the mountain region that have the 50A or 90AH winston in their car as only battery...i have no reasoning that Winston is lying here, why should they are still the rop notch rolce Royce cells on the market with or without Yttrium.
I know the first blue cells from them in 1999 and then later the green one which where going as 0-series cells to universities, state labs and big companies for testing and proof of concept. The final product sold are the yellow case.

[Dorin]

Originally Posted by Fuss

My starter is 3.5kw and probably bigger than 90% of the forum members starters and

Have you ever calculated peak inrush current for your starter? My multimeter doesn't measure Peak DC inrush and I'm trying to calculate for a 12v 1.2kW denso starter on a 1.5l diesel

Tiny starter compared to your beast.

Eve LF280K can discharge 2C for up to 30 seconds. I need half a second of 2C of my math is correct

Cheers

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Dorin

Have you ever calculated peak inrush current for your starter? My multimeter doesn't measure Peak DC inrush and I'm trying to calculate for a 12v 1.2kW denso starter on a 1.5l diesel

Tiny starter compared to your beast.

Eve LF280K can discharge 2C for up to 30 seconds. I need half a second of 2C of my math is correct

Cheers

So its 1200/12v= 100A+glow plug continious and 100A×3=300A peak
Calculate with factor 3 unless you are in a very cold area like canada or scandinavia then with 3.5.
The 280 EVE have 2C continious and 3C peak means yes you can use them easily to start your 1.5l diesel...tons of headroom.
If its a hybrid starter/house bank the BMS is the critical part.
If mosfet BMS like JK you need minimum a 200A version with 2A active balancer but better non current carrying like electrodacus or a BMV712 + relay and jk or neey active balancer which does the cell monitoring.

[Dorin]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

So its 1200/12v= 100A+glow plug continious and 100A×3=300A peak
Calculate with factor 3 unless you are in a very cold area like canada or scandinavia then with 3.5.
The 280 EVE have 2C continious and 3C peak means yes you can use them easily to start your 1.5l diesel...tons of headroom.
If its a hybrid starter/house bank the BMS is the critical part.
If mosfet BMS like JK you need minimum a 200A version with 2A active balancer but better non current carrying like electrodacus or a BMV712 + relay and jk or neey active balancer which does the cell monitoring.

What does Balancer have to do with discharge?

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Dorin

What does Balancer have to do with discharge?

Nothing. He just loves balancers so throws them into every topic.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Statistical

Nothing. He just loves balancers so throws them into every topic.

Wrong. If you use the lithium for starting especially with small banks thats a high load and stress case for the cell and can be easily thrown of in balance and if you don't balance that from the beginning more and more load and stress will go on the weakest cell which definies what the whole battery pack can do.
2nd if starter lithium they stay always at high state of charge 13.4 to 13.5V if you want they live long and charge to 14.2V occasionally with short absorption and a passive balancer has simply not sufficent time, only works while in charge and power to keep that in balance. An active one does the job for 23$ extra.
3rd if you use a BMV712 as BMS that has no cell voltage measurement/monitoring, its midpoint monitoring is enough as security aspected to switch off if deviation of cell 1+2 vs 3+4 is off.
The JK active balancer modul costs 23$ and has beside 3A balancing current cell monitoring via BT app and even warnings/alarms configurable. Cheaper you cannot get cell monitoring and fix any possible imbalance at the same time. Very cheap operational security.
That way you can eg use grade B or even C cells as starter, the active balancer fixes that too. In general you as endcustomer getting real grade A was very rare until recently, now with EV crises and tons of overcapacity around you possibly get the real grade A too but not for granted even if the supplier tell you they are. So not knowing what you really get its better to prepare for worst and be good, especially if that security cost you 23$.
So the whole starter battery using cheaper low grade cells all incl. is much cheaper as cells are cheaper and easily compensate the 23$ for the active balancer and totally sufficent for a starter that sits 95% of time around and does nothing. A start cost less then 1AH and if you have 210Ah (grade A) or only 178AH (junk grade) doesn't matter at all but the low garde cost you 25-35% less. But you need the 200AH spec cell to be able to provide the peak current for starter surge and the 23$ active balancer to operate them without issue....

If you have a BMS with cell monitoring and passive balancer i prefer the 5A heltec active balancer board that cost the same but has more balance power in case needed, taking the 2 or 3A saves you 2 till 3$, not worth in my eyes doing that. Their 10A and 15A do in reality the same then the 5A, spare yourself that money too.

Thats just 20years of experience with lifepo4, using them also in cars and RV starter as well as hybrid starter and house banks. Sure save the 23$, i don't...