Studer inverters-high end alternative to Victron and mastervolt for comparable price

[bdgWesternMass]

Thank you for posting about Studer. I really like their approach. The nextOS looks well thought out and who could argue with openStuder.

https://technext3.studer-innotec.com/modbus-next?#

The whole product line is very well organized and documented.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by bdgWesternMass

Thank you for posting about Studer. I really like their approach. The nextOS looks well thought out and who could argue with openStuder.

https://technext3.studer-innotec.com/modbus-next?#

The whole product line is very well organized and documented.

Me 2. And that they are still 100% low frequency inverter with massive overload reserves...victron is scaling down, eg new Multiplus 2 architecture is hybrid but more HF then LF with 2 standard trafo instead 1 torodial transformator and real hybrid on Multiplus/Quattro.
What i am missing is a communication link between studer and victron cerbo GX/Venus Os. I am sure it exists but i disn't find it.
I have all victron and will replace 1x 12V Multi with 2x Studer XTM 24/3500 going dual voltage banks.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Hi all,
as some of you know i got slowly pissed with Victron lowering their quality through the backdoor and was looking for alternatives.
And i found a comparable, actually better one: Studer Innotec from switzerland
https://studer-innotec.com/xtm/#technical-data
Besides their inverter/charger combos (real low frequency inverter) they also have comparable MPPTs

Best example for lowering the quality are the Multiplus 2 where Victron went really cheap and on the classy MP 2 with 3000/12/120A now delivering
- only 5500W peak (fromer 6kw) and continuous stay at 2400VA at 25 C degrees but derating quickly at 40 and 65 degrees C. Also reported by some that real 2400W is not delivered continous more like an 1h and then goes earlier into overload.
Reason is they went from a high quality toroidal transformer to 2 cheap conventional ones
- case was alu, now it is steel, which will rust
- from double connection terminals for 12V cables to one

- cheaper double sided SMD boards (which very small amount of eclectrician can fix, especially in remote places) compared to single sided conventional PCB boards with extra thick connection pathes (again easy to service high quality replaced by cheap standard throw mentallity stuff). Yes the older MP is still avaliable (and thats what i have) but the MP2 clearly shows the way Victron goes in the future.



As i am going to switch to 24V and need to replace the Victron multiplus I was looking for alternatives and found Studer from Switzerland. I had the luck and visting the factory in Sion when I was at switzerland lately and wow these are metricioulsly build inverter/charger tanks compared to Victron mulitplus and quattro which they demonstrate with 10years warranty. This is realy swiss quality 100% made in switzerland.

No affiliation with them other then super impressed about detail of build quality and every part used. Can highly recommend the XTM extender line:
https://studer-innotec.com/xtm/#technical-data

Heavy overspeced torodial transformer, easy to service and replacable military spec single PCB boards with top quality parts, real low frequency inverter with massive peak power (eg startup surge AC) but standby wattage 1/2 of Victron, fully programable via the remote control no computer needed like with Victron. this also results in 25% more charge current in the charger section then comparable victron. And best of all rating is cos pi 0.1 to 1 means no derating like Victron, also no temp derating from the given specs.



Real gem is the XTM 24-3500 which I got 2, one would be easly replace 2 units of 3000/12/120A Victron Multiplus.
The XTM 24-3500 delivers a whopping 3500VA for 30minutes (can do longer, very conservative rating), then real continious of 3000VA and 3000W (cos pi 0.1 till 1) so no derating like Victron form 3000VA to real 2400W at 25 degrees celcius. Also no temp derating means they do this rating from -20 till 55 degrees celcius while Victron goes down to 1700VA.

means that XTM24-3500 really fits the typical 16A/3500W products for 230V in Europe like a typical induction stove. The absolute burner is 9000W peak power for continous 5 sec (can also do more, thats minimum) means no problem to start every AC or everything that plugs into conventional 16A 230V household.

The Victron MP 2 12/3000 or 24/3000 has 5500W at 25 degrees celcuis or 4500W at 40 degrees C peak but not 5sec continious.
Studer XTM 24-3500 has also 90A charge current compared to 70A (Victron 24/3000). And this in the very handy size of 332mm wide x 466mm high and 133mm depth.

Prices Victron 24/3000 is avalible for arround 1700-1800Euro (with 2 year warranty), the Studer is 2000-2300Euro depending where you buy it (with 10 years warranty). Had luck and got 2 used from 2019 for under 2000Euro from an installation that was upgraded from 24V to 48V, warranty was easyly transferred to me as new owner.

I have 2 of the Studer XTM 24-3500 means 7kw for 30 minutes continously, then 6kw and 18kw of peak power from -20 till 55 degrees celcius...the 2 will run at max 50% of their capacity means they will do this very very long. this for 4200Euro, you would need 2x Victron MP 24/5000 to have similar performance (but only 2 years warranty) for 2x3000Euro and a much bigger case with 444mm x 328mm x 240mm which wouldn't fit in the spot i need to mount them (another reason i looked for alternatives).

Surprised never heard of Studer in boating before and they are used so seldom in boats. Apprently in offgrid they are the top notch product with 10 years warranty nobody else provides and many replaced Victron with Studer lately. Can see why...

Coming over from this thread about marine aircons. https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3801329

I can't find a single document that shows their rating at anything except @ 25C. Same as Victron uses.

Here are some things I did find that
"The inverter is dimensioned in such a way that the rated power output covers the power of all the consumers, which will be used at the same time. A dimensioning margin of 20 to 30% is recommended to guarantee that the Xtender will work well in an ambient temperature of more than 25 °C."

That sure sounds like it is rated @ 25C, just like everything they list says 25C.

P. 19/64 https://studer-innotec.com/wp-conten...-V4.9.3_EN.zip
Same doc. P. 62/64. Maximum efficiency is 94%. I'm sure this means maximum not at rated power.
Rated power is 3000VA @ 25C. Same as Victron Multiplus 24/3000.

It is better than Victron at zero load power. 12w vs. 20w.
It weighs more than Victron 21.2kg vs 19kg.
It has a higher peak power 9000VA vs 6000VA.

Here is the information from Victron.
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...efficiency.pdf
Victron shows ratings from 25-65C and says it's ok to use.

[s/v Jedi]

Yes, it’s raring is for 25C with de rating above that just like Victron.

Also, it’s power factor 0.1 to 1.0 is only the range for which the total harmonic distortion stays within 1%. You will not be able to pull 3000W at 0.5 cos.phi from the 3000VA unit.

It doesn’t have power assist that I can see. It isn’t even sold in NA and I think there aren’t even 120V units.

On service: Victron service is done by the dealer so make sure to get a good dealer. When Victron was smaller they did direct service and it was lovely because you talked straight with the designers. As companies grow, they need to adapt.

There are many popular brands in the US for high power shore side installations too. I don’t see those on boats at all.

Edit: just checked some pictures of MP2 units: they still have toroidal transformers so what is up with this thread?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Coming over from this thread about marine aircons. https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3801329

I can't find a single document that shows their rating at anything except @ 25C. Same as Victron uses.

Here are some things I did find that
"The inverter is dimensioned in such a way that the rated power output covers the power of all the consumers, which will be used at the same time. A dimensioning margin of 20 to 30% is recommended to guarantee that the Xtender will work well in an ambient temperature of more than 25 °C."

That sure sounds like it is rated @ 25C, just like everything they list says 25C.

P. 19/64 https://studer-innotec.com/wp-conten...-V4.9.3_EN.zip
Same doc. P. 62/64. Maximum efficiency is 94%. I'm sure this means maximum not at rated power.
Rated power is 3000VA @ 25C. Same as Victron Multiplus 24/3000.

It is better than Victron at zero load power. 12w vs. 20w.
It weighs more than Victron 21.2kg vs 19kg.
It has a higher peak power 9000VA vs 6000VA.

Here is the information from Victron.
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...efficiency.pdf
Victron shows ratings from 25-65C and says it's ok to use.

For marine studer cooperate with Phillipi, Phillipi sells phillipi made by Studer. They concentrate on europe market first but already have 120V model which are in certification process for US. When they got that they will open US subsidiary.

As wrote before i was visiting the studer factory in Switzerland when i visted a friend and was super impressed. They grow from their own cash flow and growth over 15% with no credits other then leasing cars. Rock solid swiss and turned down many private equity offers. They wanna build rock solid best quality longtherm and earn money longtermed, oldschool swiss businessman and owner.
Copied bz phangsun like Victron, as Victron said if they copy you, you made it in Top notch. Victron had to extend warranty to 10years because of Studer offering that from the start and loosing a lot market share in stationary solutions.

Studer demonstarted the inverters and also compared with victron studer XTM 25/3500 against 24/3000 Multi...the Multi went in overload at 2400W while the studer done that at 3500W, same load just switched between the 2 inverter. A 5000W peak load, victron switched off after 7 sek the Studer after 10min. Peak 6000W Victron couldn't handle and switched off right away, the studer did easly for over 5min. Maybe at 1.3% distortion but it could handle it.
Studer is real LF design which has much more reserves then Victrons hybrid design.
Measured standby is 18W Studer via 45W Victron. As said the same torodial trafo you find in the 3500 studer is used in the 24/5000 Victron...and many more heavy duty stuff plus militarygrade PCBs. Victron optimized for production cost, Studer for best for the output. And because off that they can handle higher temps better and don't derate. Studer is like winston, understatement and what they rate is minimum it will deliver.

[FlyingScot]

Ask them for the same data I provided to you with temperature curves and efficiency vs load. Let's see what they say.

But you have mentioned numerous falsehoods.

It costs more, has less features and will withstand higher loads. Nothing particulary great with that.

I'll stick with Victron integration into the Victron world. Easy to replace, repair and programming is a sinch.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Edit: just checked some pictures of MP2 units: they still have toroidal transformers so what is up with this thread?

Right on 3000W its still torodial but instead 2 its now 1 with reduced peak load means the hybrid design moved more direction HF as this is cheaper to build for more marketing output...victron sells it as lower standby usage. But as several tested already on cost of less reserve, switches of earlier.
Cannot remember which model but i saw a MP2 with 2 conventional trafo instead torodial.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Right on 3000W its still torodial but instead 2 its now 1 with reduced peak load means the hybrid design moved more direction HF as this is cheaper to build for more marketing output...victron sells it as lower standby usage. But as several tested already on cost of less reserve, switches of earlier.
Cannot remember which model but i saw a MP2 with 2 conventional trafo instead torodial.

No, no, you wrote that instead of a toroidal they now use two cheap standard transformers. You are caught in your own lies, why would you do that? Just because you want to get back at Victron for not giving you what you want?

How did you think we would not check any of your claims? No derating for temperature? BS. No derating for power factor? BS.

A higher peak load, sure that is possible but what for would anyone need that? With the Victron dynamic current limiter you can start about anything.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Ask them for the same data I provided to you with temperature curves and efficiency vs load. Let's see what they say.

But you have mentioned numerous falsehoods.

It costs more, has less features and will withstand higher loads. Nothing particulary great with that.

I'll stick with Victron integration into the Victron world. Easy to replace, repair and programming is a sinch.

As i wrote Studer XTM has all features Victron Multi has and for full programming i just take its installed remote while victron i have to drag out the adapter and was force to install bootcamp on my macAir, purchase a lovely windows to run the bloddy Victrons software...not even an ios version they have.
Take 20k and give the source code to Czech or Hungarian developers and in lastest 3 month you have a working IOS software that also works on Ipads. No need for f.. windows...but thats too expensive for private equity Victron....

Don't need to ask, i know what i saw and tested. I have a 3500W induction cooktop, victron goes in overload at 2500W while Studer handles the full 3500W in normal operation.
the german company i got my 2 Studer is replacing regularly Victron with studer now (they sell both) as the little markup in price is easly covered by more operational stability and costs.
Victron is getting too big and too much private equity influence and commercial customers see that and move away.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

No, no, you wrote that instead of a toroidal they now use two cheap standard transformers. You are caught in your own lies, why would you do that? Just because you want to get back at Victron for not giving you what you want?

How did you think we would not check any of your claims? No derating for temperature? BS. No derating for power factor? BS.

A higher peak load, sure that is possible but what for would anyone need that? With the Victron dynamic current limiter you can start about anything.

I admit i was wrong, instead 2 torrodial 1. I mixed it up, happens to best of us. Nothing to do with lying.
Still the fact that this causes is correct 2 conventional or 1 torodial instead 2 torrodial means they cheap out and move more HF as cheaper to build for higher marketing numbers but in fact less reserves...and thats what counts not that i mixed up 1 torrodial and not 2 conventional

I don't need to lie, not selling them or have any advantages from it. Just found a rock solid company with rock solid products that overfill what they promise (which is extremly rare nowadays) and yes like old Victron times they service themselves but won't outsource as the owner clearly stated its core knowledge what breaks over time so they can adress it. And thats simply What i like and support.
Yes engineer told me that i can pull 3500W at 50 degress and i can use them between -20 and 55 expecting to deliver their rating.
Efficency will go down clearly as more temp more heat but victron derates and Studer not as they have reserves.
Tested till 35 degrees and i can confirm this.
Fact i have victron 3000W and studer 3500W so i can directly compare and in any aspect that is important to me studer is better then victron
18 W standby versus 45 Victron
Cont 3500W versus 2400 Victron
Peak 9000W versus <6000W Victron
Parallel studer can be staged means 1 runs so 18W standby and from adjustable threshold the 2nd kicks in versus paralell Victron both always run means both wear and 2x45W=90W standby....

Victron is private equity owned and i see more and more bad influence and also typical polishing so they might soon be up for sale...working since 12 years for private equity and have experience how that is done and Victron ticks more and more boxes which is only good for shareholder, never for the customers.

Yes i have all victron too beside my boost inverter that already was installed and i like the older victron products but inverter and MPPT i sherry pick now from Studer and recommend to boats i advise or help to install instead victron. You get more for the same money or a little markup.

[rslifkin]

No 3kva Victron draws anywhere near 45 watts in standby. That's BS. Draw is about 20 watts for the older units, 13 for the newer ones. Even if you go to a 5kva for extra output capacity you're well under 45w in standby.

[bdgWesternMass]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

I admit i was wrong, instead 2 torrodial 1. I mixed it up, happens to best of us. Nothing to do with lying.
Still the fact that this causes is correct 2 conventional or 1 torodial instead 2 torrodial means they cheap out and move more HF as cheaper to build for higher marketing numbers but in fact less reserves...and thats what counts not that i mixed up 1 torrodial and not 2 conventional

I don't need to lie, not selling them or have any advantages from it. Just found a rock solid company with rock solid products that overfill what they promise (which is extremly rare nowadays) and yes like old Victron times they service themselves but won't outsource as the owner clearly stated its core knowledge what breaks over time so they can adress it. And thats simply What i like and support.
Yes engineer told me that i can pull 3500W at 50 degress and i can use them between -20 and 55 expecting to deliver their rating.
Efficency will go down clearly as more temp more heat but victron derates and Studer not as they have reserves.
Tested till 35 degrees and i can confirm this.
Fact i have victron 3000W and studer 3500W so i can directly compare and in any aspect that is important to me studer is better then victron
18 W standby versus 45 Victron
Cont 3500W versus 2400 Victron
Peak 9000W versus <6000W Victron
Parallel studer can be staged means 1 runs so 18W standby and from adjustable threshold the 2nd kicks in versus paralell Victron both always run means both wear and 2x45W=90W standby....

Victron is private equity owned and i see more and more bad influence and also typical polishing so they might soon be up for sale...working since 12 years for private equity and have experience how that is done and Victron ticks more and more boxes which is only good for shareholder, never for the customers.

Yes i have all victron too beside my boost inverter that already was installed and i like the older victron products but inverter and MPPT i sherry pick now from Studer and recommend to boats i advise or help to install instead victron. You get more for the same money or a little markup.

I appreciate the information and have been trying to follow the controversy. The specifications are published. I bet that if contacted the support staff would supply any power curves one wanted.

The strong reaction is bizarre, maybe one needs an investment in Victron equipment to understand.

[FlyingScot]

But you also say they are fully rated at up to 55C. The documentation they provide says otherwise. Oh, but wait you talked to a guy.... blah blah blah. I quoted the manual where it says different than you say or heard.

You also said in the other thread is was 94% efficient at full rating. That's also not true. There is no way that is true. There is a curve. 94% is the MAXIMUM as stated by their documentation.

You say you saw all this with your own eyes. Not sure I should have to tell you this, but eyes can be decieved. They setup the comparison. Not hard to cheat.

We have two Multiplus 12/3000/120-50 and both on fully synced is 60-70 watts. We flip them off to save power when not needed. When in parallel they can't go to lower power. But who leaves any single inverter in full power mode with no load? But I am 100% sure you claim of 45 watts idle is definitely wrong.

These 3 things you are just wrong about.

Anyone can buy what they want. But you clearly have a grudge against Victron and it shows with your posts. You make comparisons against different models to make S-I look better.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

No 3kva Victron draws anywhere near 45 watts in standby. That's BS. Draw is about 20 watts for the older units, 13 for the newer ones. Even if you go to a 5kva for extra output capacity you're well under 45w in standby.

Well my MP draws 45W in standby, the one studer demonstrated too if you don't use the pulsing which doesn't work if you eg have a fridge connected. And thats what Studer is measuring with 18W too to compare apple to apple.
If you use on Victron the pulsing standby with its drawbacks then you reach maybe 20W, never measured as not working for me. Thats what i eg call marketing numbers...this pulse standby rarely works sufficent so its seldom used but makes the customer think you have a low standby.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

But you also say they are fully rated at up to 55C. The documentation they provide says otherwise. Oh, but wait you talked to a guy.... blah blah blah. I quoted the manual where it says different than you say or heard.

You also said in the other thread is was 94% efficient at full rating. That's also not true. There is no way that is true. There is a curve. 94% is the MAXIMUM as stated by their documentation.

You say you saw all this with your own eyes. Not sure I should have to tell you this, but eyes can be decieved. They setup the comparison. Not hard to cheat.

We have two Multiplus 12/3000/120-50 and both on fully synced is 60-70 watts. We flip them off to save power when not needed. When in parallel they can't go to lower power. But who leaves any single inverter in full power mode with no load? But I am 100% sure you claim of 45 watts idle is definitely wrong.

These 3 things you are just wrong about.

Anyone can buy what they want. But you clearly have a grudge against Victron and it shows with your posts. You make comparisons against different models to make S-I look better.

I don't have a grunge but yes Victron was the company that overfullfilled and the reference but they got too big and too much private equity involved which results when buying victron getting a ton of small print and technical docs like when signing an insurance contract.
Seeing the reaction here is the same then when stating against apple products...their marketing is perfect and that you get ripped off more and more without noticing no charger, no earplugs, their hole pricing structure and since iphone 6 actually android delivers more then apple and includes all.
And yes that also results in new products eg a 350Euro 30A DC2DC only delivers 27A max, cannot be switched of via BT remote or i cannot limit/throttle back current. Or a 50A Phönix smart charger reaching 75 Degrees celcius outside temp and victron tells you thats normal...well if not engine room the cables installed from factory in mass production boats are 60 degrees celcius isolation rating and victron then tells you to put into engine room (where it derates due to hot surroundings) or change the cables around it...really victron. And cooking semiconductor in 75 degrees heat is definitely bad for their lifespan.Old victron non private equity would have fixed both correctly...
They are still good products and thats why i bought DC2DC knowing partly (but got less then expected as it was somewhere in the fineprint i didn't read) because it fits nicely in the rest victron...

My victron inverter runs 24/7 as starlink and 230V freezer connected.

Victron is build to cost, thats why everything is controlled and measured so you can squeeze the lemon to limit. Thats why its a hybrid design as a pure HF design won't give you reliability a victron needs from his name and reputation for everything above around 1500W but a pure LF design is too expensive to reach profit private equity requires.
Studer is build to quality and thats why they use the expensive and more sturdy pure LF design for the inverter. You cannot save money here as it needs big beefy trafos and heavy duty parts but its less prone to heat and malfunction and has enormous reserves, 3x the current. Thats why Studer simply specifies thats the reference rating at 25 degrees C as every quality manufacturer states and then give a working range of -20 to 55 degrees. And you can expect your studer working in this conditions and deliver its rating as the reserves in design will handle that. Thats swiss cultural and quality, i live there 23 years so i understand. They don't need more. They don't need to give extended small prints to customer like insurance company in the small print reducing their rating to 1700W from 2400W due to temps or play tricks with standby.
The victron has 70A charge current, the studer 90A because its hardware can simply deliver more. LF design you simply use the trafo in reverse function for charging. Victron and studer have a identical 3000VA reference rating but studer can deliver 25% more current so Studer is using his 25% more to deliver the 3000VA also at 40 degrees and even at 50...