Studer inverters-high end alternative to Victron and mastervolt for comparable price

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Well my MP draws 45W in standby, the one studer demonstrated too if you don't use the pulsing which doesn't work if you eg have a fridge connected. And thats what Studer is measuring with 18W too to compare apple to apple.
If you use on Victron the pulsing standby with its drawbacks then you reach maybe 20W, never measured as not working for me. Thats what i eg call marketing numbers...this pulse standby rarely works sufficent so its seldom used but makes the customer think you have a low standby.

That doesn't seem right. My 2kva Multiplus standby draw measures right at the 10w the spec sheet says when running in normal mode. I've never tried the low power mode on it.

I can't say it's the beefiest, best, or most efficient inverter design out there, but in my experience they meet the provided specs (so it'll do what you expect it to) and they work well. Plus the systems integration stuff is nice.

On the private equity thing, do you have a source? I haven't been able to find any mention of private equity ownership for Victron.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

On the private equity thing, do you have a source? I haven't been able to find any mention of private equity ownership for Victron.

I'm pretty sure the Vader family still owns Victron Energy. A PE may have injected some cash, but I don't think it's wholly owned by one.

[T1 Terry]

Wow, seems to be a lot of marketing going on here with the usual salesman bias stretching the truth just a bit
I don't understand why anyone would buy an inverter that had less capacity than they needed relying on the overload capacity to make up for a poor system design. If you need 3500w peak, you should install 5000w of capacity to allow a bit of headroom and possible temperature issues should they arise.
You can make a Victron inverter put out a 50% overload for 30 mins if you really wanted to, simply in the programming and by keeping temp inside the inverter under 25*C at all times, but why would anyone want to do that? The chiller system required would pull a lot more power than the larger output inverter or even running two inverters in parallel.
Yes, two Victron inverters in parallel supplying a very small load will draw high standby current, stupid things like the clock on the microwave, the light staying on in the fridge, a wall wart left powered up but not charging anything .... dumb parasitic loads that anyone on off grid power knows to eliminate ....

Getting the right Victron supplier is very good advice, the reseller on Evilbay might have a great price, but unless they direct Victron backed suppliers, forget about backup assistance from the seller, you are on your own and left to try and sort the problems via the Victron Community site ..... they can be incredibly helpful in sorting out stuff the Victron manuals don't seem to tell you in straight talk you can understand easily ..... like the color control units, the Victron speak makes it look like you can fully control all the devices connected to it, until you actually try to do it, then you find it's only really a display device that can send all the information to the VRM and you can reprogram stuff in the GX color thingy, not it the units actually linked to it .... each of them need to be linked to the VRM so they can be remotely adjusted .... not a good thing to find out when the system is now on the other side of the country and the owner is a technopeasant

T1 Terry

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

like the color control units, the Victron speak makes it look like you can fully control all the devices connected to it, until you actually try to do it, then you find it's only really a display device that can send all the information to the VRM and you can reprogram stuff in the GX color thingy, not it the units actually linked to it .... each of them need to be linked to the VRM so they can be remotely adjusted .... not a good thing to find out when the system is now on the other side of the country and the owner is a technopeasant T1 Terry

Sounds like a bit too much cleverness for me. Yes to their MPPTs and a unused Power In from FB, but do I need to be monitoring it all every 10 minutes or from 500 miles away? Hadn't appreciated that the display was only that, a display.

Pete

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Matt Johnson

I'm pretty sure the Vader family still owns Victron Energy. A PE may have injected some cash, but I don't think it's wholly owned by one.

Vader is still in but private equity has majority and run the show...

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Vader is still in but private equity has majority and run the show...

Alright, in that case, which PE firm is it? Can you provide a source, as I've been looking and haven't found anything yet.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

Wow, seems to be a lot of marketing going on here with the usual salesman bias stretching the truth just a bit
I don't understand why anyone would buy an inverter that had less capacity than they needed relying on the overload capacity to make up for a poor system design. If you need 3500w peak, you should install 5000w of capacity to allow a bit of headroom and possible temperature issues should they arise.
You can make a Victron inverter put out a 50% overload for 30 mins if you really wanted to, simply in the programming and by keeping temp inside the inverter under 25*C at all times, but why would anyone want to do that? The chiller system required would pull a lot more power than the larger output inverter or even running two inverters in parallel.
Yes, two Victron inverters in parallel supplying a very small load will draw high standby current, stupid things like the clock on the microwave, the light staying on in the fridge, a wall wart left powered up but not charging anything .... dumb parasitic loads that anyone on off grid power knows to eliminate ....

Getting the right Victron supplier is very good advice, the reseller on Evilbay might have a great price, but unless they direct Victron backed suppliers, forget about backup assistance from the seller, you are on your own and left to try and sort the problems via the Victron Community site ..... they can be incredibly helpful in sorting out stuff the Victron manuals don't seem to tell you in straight talk you can understand easily ..... like the color control units, the Victron speak makes it look like you can fully control all the devices connected to it, until you actually try to do it, then you find it's only really a display device that can send all the information to the VRM and you can reprogram stuff in the GX color thingy, not it the units actually linked to it .... each of them need to be linked to the VRM so they can be remotely adjusted .... not a good thing to find out when the system is now on the other side of the country and the owner is a technopeasant

T1 Terry

Yes Terry is right here.
Also the cost of all the cables and adapters you need to connect this whole victron stuff together is ridiculously expensive. Instant read out on all smart devices provides you with all the values needed and a cerbo GX has BT, but no you get ripped off and need to buy and root all this proprietary victron cables to connect it together.

Problem in 12V is that all the top notch inverter manufacturer have max 2400W but in 230V you sometimes need 3000-3500W continious for a short time like 5-15min, thats what the 230 network and their appliances typically have max.
So you have only 3 opportunities:
1)Expensive Victron Quattro 12/5000 but its huge and i couldn't make it fit
2) parallel 2 units like multi, high standby and paralleling is not without problems, the victron community is full of it. Plus both inverters wear even you just need 1 in 95% of time and you actually just need the 2nd for 5% of time
3) the boost inverter setup i done. Instead paralleling eg 2 Multi you can also series connect them like this and stage them. Less standby, wear&tear. Disadvantage if you don't use a Victron Quattro you need a manual transfer switch to choose between shorepower and boost/stage inverter as the other inverters have just one AC in and then switch from only inverter (charger must be off in this setup) to inverter/charger in the BT app, need a BT dongle for this setup and not the remote...hardly ever plug in so no problem for me. Need that as 3rd emergency backup when i charge via shorepower charger with the Honda gas genny.

In 24V its easier, all of the top notch manufacturers have 24/5000 models but their 24/3000 still have the same issue then above. Here you still have that a 5000W has a high standby and are actually oversized, so 2x 3000VA are better for redundancy.
Studer as only one exactly fits the bill with the XTM 24-3500, it can do 3500W for this 5% of time and has enormous reserves also doing that at higher temps plus handle the surge current any 3500W device can produce like an AC. So one is enough. i have 2, one acts as working spare and will series connect them like in 3) boost inverter setup so that from 2500W the 2 nd kicks in so i don't unnecessarily stress the main inverter out.
This gives me low standby, less wear and tear. And the unlikely event one Studer dies, the 2nd can fully run the show without limitation.

[bdgWesternMass]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Alright, in that case, which PE firm is it? Can you provide a source, as I've been looking and haven't found anything yet.

I could find no real proof but I did find a Victron energy that was registered in California and was private equity firm specializing in Eastern contract manufacturing. I could find no relationship to a Netherlands based company so I ignored it as proof of anything.

Doesn't seem like the same company but maybe.

https://www.cbinsights.com/company/victron

[rslifkin]

It sounds like your goal is to push the limits of what's practical with a 12v battery system. In that case, gear selection will be limiting. Once you need much more than 2 - 2.5 kva of continuous output, it's time to start looking at 24v or 48v systems. You get better equipment selection as well as greatly reduced operating current (safer and also uses lighter, cheaper wiring).

Originally Posted by bdgWesternMass

I could find no real proof but I did find a Victron energy that was registered in California and was private equity firm specializing in Eastern contract manufacturing. I could find no relationship to a Netherlands based company so I ignored it as proof of anything.

Doesn't seem like the same company but maybe.

https://www.cbinsights.com/company/victron

I found that as well. From what I found, there seem to be 2 unrelated companies named Victron Energy (and that aren't in the same product space or anything).

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by bdgWesternMass

I could find no real proof but I did find a Victron energy that was registered in California and was private equity firm specializing in Eastern contract manufacturing. I could find no relationship to a Netherlands based company so I ignored it as proof of anything.

Doesn't seem like the same company but maybe.

https://www.cbinsights.com/company/victron

Nothing to do with Each other then name.
Well i have NDA....its a consortium of 3 PE and i have a frame contract with one of them.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

It sounds like your goal is to push the limits of what's practical with a 12v battery system. In that case, gear selection will be limiting. Once you need much more than 2 - 2.5 kva of continuous output, it's time to start looking at 24v or 48v systems. You get better equipment selection as well as greatly reduced operating current (safer and also uses lighter, cheaper wiring).



I found that as well. From what I found, there seem to be 2 unrelated companies named Victron Energy (and that aren't in the same product space or anything).

Majority of boats are still 12V and they are in their 2nd, 3rd or more refit cycle, so you have a lot 12V legacy equipment and no green field. And not everyone has money,time and knowhow to do a big 24 or 48V refit, nor it makes sense if you eg have the classical mass production setup hybrid starter/service in one hull, starter in the other.
Its the 230V 16A nework in europe that gives you the frame. You typically need 2000-2500W (which is 200-250A with all losses)continious but sometimes 3500 for 5-15min (which is 300-350A) especially if you go full electric galley means proper cooktop and oven.
And in this case you have 1 or 2 inverter close to bank and just need a beefy connection, thats all. Short runs, small losses with up to 120mm2/gauge 4.0 and rest of 12V installation gets untouched. Thats how a typical 12V upgrade looks. Problem was just to get quailty inverter that can do that, with my boost inverter setup there is a way around that as even with a 1600VA multi paired with a 3000W HF inverter you get that for a relatively small budget.

And yes i tried the borders as on my cat all is 12V, have hybrid bank in STB and starter BB and a lot of legacy 12V brand new from former owner who spend 130k incl. Engines and windlass in the last 2years before i bought it.
My solution is either i keep my 12V setup with Victron Multi and boost inverter and 1088AH+300AH lead which actually runs very well or i go dual voltage banks where current 12V/1088AH bank gets reconfigured for 24V for 2xStuder XTM 24-3500 inverter only and a new 12V LTO bank thats STB starter/hybrid bank for the rest of cat plus another 30AH LTO for BB hull..

[FlyingScot]

The Victron world allows you to gather all the data in one spot. Yes, you have to buy a few hundred dollars’ worth of cables to make it all happen. But then you have remote monitoring. One source to update firmware on all devices. In the big scheme of things, it's not that terrible for the data to be collected. The GX screen are also a nice way to get a quick overview of what's happening.

As far as serial operation, I'm not sure how much better this is that what you can do with Victron. You can turn on a second one when you need more power than one. Just put the output the 2nd one into the first one as shore power. Sounds almost exactly the same. Maybe this one does it automatically?

[T1 Terry]

The Victron community site has the plug type and pin-out for each of the different communication cables, so if you want to save money, you can make your own.
The 230vac 16 amps mentioned by Captain Rivet actually requires a minimum of 3600w and it is even slightly overloaded at that, so a Victron 3000VA unit is never going to provide that sort of load continuously, now will anything with a different brand name do a job it was never designed to do.
I'll admit, the Victron 48/5000 multiplus II is a heavy beast, , I could have opted for 2 x 12/300 multiplus units, but then I'd need 4 times as many solar controllers compared to going 48v ..... the numbers said 48v made a lot more sense in this install, but if the space and voltage is restricted, 2 x 3000/12 will do the job just fine ...... but you do need to understand a lot about load sharing to get the cabling correct if you want one inverter to do the majority of the work and the second to act as an overload, no idea why you would want to do that, but .... each to their own I guess.
No idea how you would switch a second inverter on from cold to share the load of an inverter that was already overloaded, maybe you share that piece of knowledge with us ....

T1 Terry

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

The Victron world allows you to gather all the data in one spot. Yes, you have to buy a few hundred dollars’ worth of cables to make it all happen. But then you have remote monitoring. One source to update firmware on all devices. In the big scheme of things, it's not that terrible for the data to be collected. The GX screen are also a nice way to get a quick overview of what's happening.

As far as serial operation, I'm not sure how much better this is that what you can do with Victron. You can turn on a second one when you need more power than one. Just put the output the 2nd one into the first one as shore power. Sounds almost exactly the same. Maybe this one does it automatically?

Trying to figure out this hundreds of dollars of cables. I’ve gone full Victron (multiplus, cerbo, mppts, smartshunt, bmv for starter battery) and the only proprietary cables in the system were the VE.Direct cables, and they were sub $100 for the lot of them. Even then, one could roll your own, I’m just too lazy to do so.

By far, the most expensive bit of cabling was the 2/0 copper needed for the high current portions of the project. But that’s going to be the same no matter what.

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by hjohnson

Trying to figure out this hundreds of dollars of cables. I’ve gone full Victron (multiplus, cerbo, mppts, smartshunt, bmv for starter battery) and the only proprietary cables in the system were the VE.Direct cables, and they were sub $100 for the lot of them. Even then, one could roll your own, I’m just too lazy to do so.

By far, the most expensive bit of cabling was the 2/0 copper needed for the high current portions of the project. But that’s going to be the same no matter what.

Let's see on our boat we have:
7 x VE.Direct to USB for MPPT to USB Hub. $30 each.
1 x VE.Direct from Phoenix 800VA to Cerbo $20
Cerbo to NMEA2K Interface $70

I think all the rest were Ethernet cables, One between the Multis, Multi to Cerbo, Lynx Smart BMS500 to Multi, etc. Cheaper if you use off brand or make your own. If not $10-20 each.
Programming Cable MK3 - USB Interface $70

Actual copper wire consumed was much more costly for me as well. A couple hundred feet of 4/0 and eight or so pieces of 2 x 2/0 from Lynx to each Multi.

Take out what you think wasn't needed and it's still a few hundred dollars.