Studer inverters-high end alternative to Victron and mastervolt for comparable price

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Let's see on our boat we have:
7 x VE.Direct to USB for MPPT to USB Hub. $30 each.
1 x VE.Direct from Phoenix 800VA to Cerbo $20
Cerbo to NMEA2K Interface $70


Take out what you think wasn't needed and it's still a few hundred dollars.

Yeah, you have far more MPPTs than I do. I only have one USB adapter, primarily because I went with a stupid number of shunts/BMVs (Smart Shunt as a DC Meter for my house loads, and a BMV-712 to monitor/control my starter battery).

[T1 Terry]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Let's see on our boat we have:
7 x VE.Direct to USB for MPPT to USB Hub. $30 each.
1 x VE.Direct from Phoenix 800VA to Cerbo $20
Cerbo to NMEA2K Interface $70

I think all the rest were Ethernet cables, One between the Multis, Multi to Cerbo, Lynx Smart BMS500 to Multi, etc. Cheaper if you use off brand or make your own. If not $10-20 each.
Programming Cable MK3 - USB Interface $70

Actual copper wire consumed was much more costly for me as well. A couple hundred feet of 4/0 and eight or so pieces of 2 x 2/0 from Lynx to each Multi.

Take out what you think wasn't needed and it's still a few hundred dollars.

Most of those cables were to provide a screen display of each individual component weren't they, something that could have been bluetooth linked to a tablet. The MPPT controllers all network with each other and a BMV 712, so none of those cables were required for system control. It could be linked to the VRM so you could monitor it anywhere that has the interweb, but you can only see if it's doing the right thing or going pear-shaped, you can't actually do anything ... but via Bluetooth to the tablet and remote linking the tablet with a computer (or phone) via the interweb, you can actually make changes .... Maybe Victron will get up to speed with this sort of remote operation rather than simple monitoring, they might even get the DC to DC charger to network with all the other gear ... we live in hope

Has anyone actually tried the back up capacity inverter wired to the main inverter shore power side to see if it actually works?
I realise the main inverter would require its shore power charging capability dropped back to nothing to avoid the spiral of death and the power assist set very high, but if it does work, can anyone see what other adjustments would need to be made?

T1 Terry

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

Most of those cables were to provide a screen display of each individual component weren't they, something that could have been bluetooth linked to a tablet. The MPPT controllers all network with each other and a BMV 712, so none of those cables were required for system control. It could be linked to the VRM so you could monitor it anywhere that has the interweb, but you can only see if it's doing the right thing or going pear-shaped, you can't actually do anything ... but via Bluetooth to the tablet and remote linking the tablet with a computer (or phone) via the interweb, you can actually make changes .... Maybe Victron will get up to speed with this sort of remote operation rather than simple monitoring, they might even get the DC to DC charger to network with all the other gear ... we live in hope

No, they're required for a fully integrated system, as bluetooth is not reliable enough for real-time control of the MPPTs under the direction of the BMS. The VE.smart networking, which you're talking about, is only suitable for basic work, but I wouldn't rely on it for large scale systems.

When you're running a DVCC system with BMS integration, cabling is your only choice.

[T1 Terry]

Originally Posted by hjohnson

No, they're required for a fully integrated system, as bluetooth is not reliable enough for real-time control of the MPPTs under the direction of the BMS. The VE.smart networking, which you're talking about, is only suitable for basic work, but I wouldn't rely on it for large scale systems.

When you're running a DVCC system with BMS integration, cabling is your only choice.

What BMS system are you using that won't respond to the bluetooth networking? No idea what you consider to be more complex than the "basic work" that can be done via the bluetooth smart networking, so please tell me what these functions are ...... each component linked to a computer "tablet" via bluetooth can be controlled via bluetooth on an individual basis ... well, as long as the tablet is close enough to the components for the bluetooth signal to remain strong .... that is how updates are pushed through to the various parts of the Victron system. About the only ones to not allow updating just for the sake of it are the multiplus and quattro inverters, best to only do updates on those while you are actually face to face and plugged in with the buggers, so you can save the last program before updating to give you a fall back position if it all goes pear-shaped

T1 Terry

[FlyingScot]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

Most of those cables were to provide a screen display of each individual component weren't they, something that could have been bluetooth linked to a tablet. The MPPT controllers all network with each other and a BMV 712, so none of those cables were required for system control. It could be linked to the VRM so you could monitor it anywhere that has the interweb, but you can only see if it's doing the right thing or going pear-shaped, you can't actually do anything ... but via Bluetooth to the tablet and remote linking the tablet with a computer (or phone) via the interweb, you can actually make changes .... Maybe Victron will get up to speed with this sort of remote operation rather than simple monitoring, they might even get the DC to DC charger to network with all the other gear ... we live in hope

Has anyone actually tried the back up capacity inverter wired to the main inverter shore power side to see if it actually works?
I realise the main inverter would require its shore power charging capability dropped back to nothing to avoid the spiral of death and the power assist set very high, but if it does work, can anyone see what other adjustments would need to be made?

T1 Terry

I agree, I wish it had more functionality. Victron is always adding functionality, so there is hope. I still connect to all my devices via BT. The list that shows up on my phone is impressively long when everything is turned on. But not everything has BT (Multiplus x 2, Phoenix Inverter) immediately come to mind. Buth then there are things that have BT but no VE.Direct cable. We have two Blue Smart IP65 5A 12v chargers. One per start battery so we can keep the start batteries charged without running the engine. We also have two Smart Battery Protects.

As far as serial operation (one inverter feeds another) can be seen here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRi8...aW52ZXJ0ZXI%3D

and here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsTk...aW52ZXJ0ZXI%3D

Still waiting to here how the Studer is special in this regard.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

The Victron community site has the plug type and pin-out for each of the different communication cables, so if you want to save money, you can make your own.
The 230vac 16 amps mentioned by Captain Rivet actually requires a minimum of 3600w and it is even slightly overloaded at that, so a Victron 3000VA unit is never going to provide that sort of load continuously, now will anything with a different brand name do a job it was never designed to do.
I'll admit, the Victron 48/5000 multiplus II is a heavy beast, , I could have opted for 2 x 12/300 multiplus units, but then I'd need 4 times as many solar controllers compared to going 48v ..... the numbers said 48v made a lot more sense in this install, but if the space and voltage is restricted, 2 x 3000/12 will do the job just fine ...... but you do need to understand a lot about load sharing to get the cabling correct if you want one inverter to do the majority of the work and the second to act as an overload, no idea why you would want to do that, but .... each to their own I guess.
No idea how you would switch a second inverter on from cold to share the load of an inverter that was already overloaded, maybe you share that piece of knowledge with us ....

T1 Terry

Hi Terry,
I don't have a too small inverter and in 90% the 12/3000 with real 2400W is enough 90% of time, actually 75% of time less then 1000W is needed.
And for the other 10% i just add a 2nd inverter, which is moatly the case when cooking a big meal for guests. I don't need the wear&tear on the 2nd inverter the whole time but the one multi is always on as i have eg a 230V freezer running on it.
I shared how to boost a victron multi with another inverter using generator assistant and power assistant.
Here in this thread:
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...kw-276428.html

You can use any inverter that has a remote or a hardware on/off switch (you just solder 2 cables on that switch and route them to the NO-relay of the victron), it can also be another multi.

And you can use that method also to stage victron or studer inverters. You are just limited to their transfer switch capabilities. And there is no complex load sharing. Till 2400W its only the multi, above multi switches on the 2nd invertet and that takes the first 2200W (adjustable via power assist, i have 10A even the 2nd can do 16A), above that is take on by multi.
Only disadvantage is you need a manual transfer switch to switch between 2nd boost inverter or shorepower but i hardly ever plug in so that is ok.

@flyingscot: the studer inverter you can parallel them and then set a threshold on the Master when the Slave kicks in. So for small loads only one studer works and 2nd kicks in when above your set limit and starts sharing the load. Cannot be done with victron, you need the workaround to series connect them as shown in my thread and by Andy's video who got the tip from me how to do that.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by FlyingScot

Let's see on our boat we have:
7 x VE.Direct to USB for MPPT to USB Hub. $30 each.
1 x VE.Direct from Phoenix 800VA to Cerbo $20
Cerbo to NMEA2K Interface $70

I think all the rest were Ethernet cables, One between the Multis, Multi to Cerbo, Lynx Smart BMS500 to Multi, etc. Cheaper if you use off brand or make your own. If not $10-20 each.
Programming Cable MK3 - USB Interface $70

Actual copper wire consumed was much more costly for me as well. A couple hundred feet of 4/0 and eight or so pieces of 2 x 2/0 from Lynx to each Multi.

Take out what you think wasn't needed and it's still a few hundred dollars.

Exactly i need for the cerbo:
9 VE direct cable, the cost Victron is 9x30$ but worse is the cost of roouting these as my cable channels are all full and all of them have BT instant readout.
1x nmea 2000 to ve can
1x USB Mk3 interface
1x Windows 8.1 licence and 20GB of my MacAir harddisc with boot camp

Add to that cost and rime of f...windows licence and installing a windows system on a mac using boot camp as lovely Victron has no IOS software...and i only have mac or andriod.
I found a solution so i need to route only 1 usb cable instead 9 VE direct which wouldn't have been possible. Used a 4 VE direct to usb and then a usb hub.

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Exactly i need for the cerbo:
9 VE direct cable, the cost Victron is 9x30$ but worse is the cost of roouting these as my cable channels are all full and all of them have BT instant readout.
1x nmea 2000 to ve can
1x USB Mk3 interface
1x Windows 8.1 licence and 20GB of my MacAir harddisc with boot camp

Add to that cost and rime of f...windows licence and installing a windows system on a mac using boot camp as lovely Victron has no IOS software...and i only have mac or andriod.
I found a solution so i need to route only 1 usb cable instead 9 VE direct which wouldn't have been possible. Used a 4 VE direct to usb and then a usb hub.

If you have a cerbo, there's no need for the Mk3 USB interface, you can do the whole job with just the cerbo, including running the (admittedly windows) ve.configure app. You just use the vrm site to download the multi-plus config, load it into the software, then push it back through via VRM. works a treat. saved us the $80 in buying a mk3 that we didn't need.

For others reading this, there are also third party ve.direct to USB adapters that have up to 4 ports per adapter.

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

What BMS system are you using that won't respond to the bluetooth networking?

I'm not talking using a bluetooth app on your phone to see what the status of your battery is.

In a DVCC type system, the BMS is sending out a constant stream of directions to the rest of the system, giving both the status of the battery (temperature, voltage, voltage of each cell, current) as well as what the limits are for charging (voltage targets, current limits, etc...) and status/alarms. This data is coming out at a fairly high rate, and needs to be reliable so that the feedback loop that exists between the battery and the charging sources is reliable.

Bluetooth simply isn't reliable enough for realtime control like this. Doubly true if it's linking to devices in different compartments/ends of the boat.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by hjohnson

If you have a cerbo, there's no need for the Mk3 USB interface, you can do the whole job with just the cerbo, including running the (admittedly windows) ve.configure app. You just use the vrm site to download the multi-plus config, load it into the software, then push it back through via VRM. works a treat. saved us the $80 in buying a mk3 that we didn't need.

For others reading this, there are also third party ve.direct to USB adapters that have up to 4 ports per adapter.

I have a cerbo but still wait for all the cables since over 2 month...canaries suck for shipping...
When installing Multi i simply needed the interface.
Well you need to be online to do all via VRM and when Murphy hits you are not online in middle of ocean...so its needed i can always log into Multi. And on a 5000Euro installation this 80$ for additional security and redundancy is also worth it.

Yes this 4 VE to one USB galvanicly isolated i am using, without them it wouldn't be possible to connect my VE direct devices as i have no space in cable channels anymore for the additional 9 VE direct cables, only 1 USB hardly fits additional. Cerbo was not planed, i just added it
later because i got one quite cheap and i wanna do some automations.

[T1 Terry]

That would work great if the load would gradually increase to give the second inverter time to power up (output is not instantaneous unless the inverter is actually in stand by mode) and then for the handshake and test period the primary inverter requires to the stability of the supplied ac input. I'm not sure if any of the readers here have experienced the Onan generator problem where the inverter will not accept the power supplied by the Onan generator because it is not "clean" enough, too many frequencies one on top of the other ..... many Chinese cheapy generators suffer other issues like the supply voltage is not stable enough and the inverter will not switch on the generator supply.
Clearly, the Victron output is "clean" enough for the other Victron to accept, I have my doubts many of the cheap Chinese inverter outputs would be "clean" enough.

T1 Terry

[CaptainRivet]

@Terry:
My setup works great with an Edecoa 3500W HF inverter for 300Euro as boost inverter. Had it and could sell it for 100, so not much to loose and it does the job since 8 month perfectly.
Edecoa you just unscrew the front plate, unplug the 2 cable from the on/off switch and connect cable to the remote relais of victron, done. It works with battery voltage.
That means the 2nd is not on standby as its switched on by victron. Edecoa has a soft start function and switch over works fine...first 3 sek you can see that Victron has an higher jitter as it needs to adapt to the frequency of the 2nd inverter.

I think the 2nd studer slave is slowly ramping up to his "share" if threshold of master is reached as the master has more then enough power to carry the full load. Just tested them quickly at my parents garage, need to get them to the boat. but not hurring as my Victron boosted inverter in 12V works amazingly great. And it shows me that in reality i seldomly need more then the 2,4kw of the victron but if then i need it. So having one running 24/7/365 and just add a 2nd when more load needed is more then sufficent and for that a premium price victron is not need as the 2nd runs maybe 1h per week or 4h per month so cheaper HF is more then sufficient.

Other good HF inverter are solartronics "made in Germany" or the Giandel (needs a little adapter board to switch it remotely) where you get good clean 3kw@12V for around 400Euro. Tested by many in DIY Solarforum, RV or Electrodacus forum and running since years.