Studer inverters-high end alternative to Victron and mastervolt for comparable price

[CaptainRivet]

Hi all,
as some of you know i got slowly pissed with Victron lowering their quality through the backdoor and was looking for alternatives.
And i found a comparable, actually better one: Studer Innotec from switzerland
https://studer-innotec.com/xtm/#technical-data
Besides their inverter/charger combos (real low frequency inverter) they also have comparable MPPTs

Best example for lowering the quality are the Multiplus 2 where Victron went really cheap and on the classy MP 2 with 3000/12/120A now delivering
- only 5500W peak (fromer 6kw) and continuous stay at 2400VA at 25 C degrees but derating quickly at 40 and 65 degrees C. Also reported by some that real 2400W is not delivered continous more like an 1h and then goes earlier into overload.
Reason is they went from a high quality toroidal transformer to 2 cheap conventional ones
- case was alu, now it is steel, which will rust
- from double connection terminals for 12V cables to one

- cheaper double sided SMD boards (which very small amount of eclectrician can fix, especially in remote places) compared to single sided conventional PCB boards with extra thick connection pathes (again easy to service high quality replaced by cheap standard throw mentallity stuff). Yes the older MP is still avaliable (and thats what i have) but the MP2 clearly shows the way Victron goes in the future.



As i am going to switch to 24V and need to replace the Victron multiplus I was looking for alternatives and found Studer from Switzerland. I had the luck and visting the factory in Sion when I was at switzerland lately and wow these are metricioulsly build inverter/charger tanks compared to Victron mulitplus and quattro which they demonstrate with 10years warranty. This is realy swiss quality 100% made in switzerland.

No affiliation with them other then super impressed about detail of build quality and every part used. Can highly recommend the XTM extender line:
https://studer-innotec.com/xtm/#technical-data

Heavy overspeced torodial transformer, easy to service and replacable military spec single PCB boards with top quality parts, real low frequency inverter with massive peak power (eg startup surge AC) but standby wattage 1/2 of Victron, fully programable via the remote control no computer needed like with Victron. this also results in 25% more charge current in the charger section then comparable victron. And best of all rating is cos pi 0.1 to 1 means no derating like Victron, also no temp derating from the given specs.



Real gem is the XTM 24-3500 which I got 2, one would be easly replace 2 units of 3000/12/120A Victron Multiplus.
The XTM 24-3500 delivers a whopping 3500VA for 30minutes (can do longer, very conservative rating), then real continious of 3000VA and 3000W (cos pi 0.1 till 1) so no derating like Victron form 3000VA to real 2400W at 25 degrees celcius. Also no temp derating means they do this rating from -20 till 55 degrees celcius while Victron goes down to 1700VA.

means that XTM24-3500 really fits the typical 16A/3500W products for 230V in Europe like a typical induction stove. The absolute burner is 9000W peak power for continous 5 sec (can also do more, thats minimum) means no problem to start every AC or everything that plugs into conventional 16A 230V household.

The Victron MP 2 12/3000 or 24/3000 has 5500W at 25 degrees celcuis or 4500W at 40 degrees C peak but not 5sec continious.
Studer XTM 24-3500 has also 90A charge current compared to 70A (Victron 24/3000). And this in the very handy size of 332mm wide x 466mm high and 133mm depth.

Prices Victron 24/3000 is avalible for arround 1700-1800Euro (with 2 year warranty), the Studer is 2000-2300Euro depending where you buy it (with 10 years warranty). Had luck and got 2 used from 2019 for under 2000Euro from an installation that was upgraded from 24V to 48V, warranty was easyly transferred to me as new owner.

I have 2 of the Studer XTM 24-3500 means 7kw for 30 minutes continously, then 6kw and 18kw of peak power from -20 till 55 degrees celcius...the 2 will run at max 50% of their capacity means they will do this very very long. this for 4200Euro, you would need 2x Victron MP 24/5000 to have similar performance (but only 2 years warranty) for 2x3000Euro and a much bigger case with 444mm x 328mm x 240mm which wouldn't fit in the spot i need to mount them (another reason i looked for alternatives).

Surprised never heard of Studer in boating before and they are used so seldom in boats. Apprently in offgrid they are the top notch product with 10 years warranty nobody else provides and many replaced Victron with Studer lately. Can see why...

[CharlieJ]

A couple of corrections:
1. Standard Victron warranty is five years for most of their product line.
2. Extended Victron warranty is 10 years for a 10% up charge.

[Zil]

I see they are planning to open in Fla, USA. But right now no North American except Mexico.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

A couple of corrections:
1. Standard Victron warranty is five years for most of their product line.
2. Extended Victron warranty is 10 years for a 10% up charge.

Thats new to me, well since Studer brought that up they needed to react. So I will extend for what I have from them. Thank you.
The details is in the fine print and between the lines, look at exclusions in both…

Let’s formulate it that way, getting a preindication if it’s covered by warranty and what might be wrong from Victron is nearly impossible, highly departmentalized hiding behind FAQs and very hard to get an actual person on the line. I went through that pain with a new out of the box Phönix smart charger getting 85 degrees Celsius hot…first that’s normal…took me 3 month to get it replaced.

in Switzerland I know now after visiting the factory the direct email of the repair departement which consist of 4 technicians, so I can get some good indication if it’s covered and/or worth shipping from some island to them for warranty or not. It’s not outsourced, they do it themselves so they learn about the failures. Victron is a surprise box, do they do it themselves, most likely outsourced. yes it’s that small at Studer because the defect rate is close to 0. if then it’s external circumstances like a geko went into the inverter while the installation was shut down for maintenance, switching on one of the 3 inverter got shorted because a Geko got in during that time and was on main board of that inverter causing several shorts when it was powered on. Geko roasted, Main board toast…

[Chartist]

Hi Captain Rivet.
After reading your post of Studer inverters I looked up the Studer manual and a Studer inverter provides a link to connect inverter neutral to earth during inverting.
Is this something you have looked into please?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Chartist

Hi Captain Rivet.
After reading your post of Studer inverters I looked up the Studer manual and a Studer inverter provides a link to connect inverter neutral to earth during inverting.
Is this something you have looked into please?

No i didn't look into these yet. Both inverter still lying at my parents and waiting to be pick up by me.
Why do you wanna do that?

[Chartist]

Hi Captain Rivet

It's a bit .technical . As you probably know, some inverters give you 2 lives at 110 volts each , neither of them referenced to earth. When referenced to earth, one side will be at 220 volts and the referenced to earth side will be at 0 volts..
You cannot connect an inverter live to earth because it will burn the inverter out instantly. But the low frequency inverters like Suder have an isolating transformer which means the transformer output is floating , but isolated
el ectrically from the inverter electronics.
The input to the transformer is also floating, but part of.the inverter battery /electronics..
In Britain , on land , this system is used for safety because the live exposed metal parts will trip the breaker.
In metal boats , as I'm.sure you know, there are many other problems, of connecting to mains power.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Chartist

Hi Captain Rivet

It's a bit .technical . As you probably know, some inverters give you 2 lives at 110 volts each , neither of them referenced to earth. When referenced to earth, one side will be at 220 volts and the referenced to earth side will be at 0 volts..
You cannot connect an inverter live to earth because it will burn the inverter out instantly. But the low frequency inverters like Suder have an isolating transformer which means the transformer output is floating , but isolated
el ectrically from the inverter electronics.
The input to the transformer is also floating, but part of.the inverter battery /electronics..
In Britain , on land , this system is used for safety because the live exposed metal parts will trip the breaker.
In metal boats , as I'm.sure you know, there are many other problems, of connecting to mains power.

I think its best you contact Studer support with your question. They are really food and professional.
I have a GFK boat, so not facing these issues.
I normally help others to install lithium and systems like inverter arround it. Till now i used Victrons but will recommend the Studers instead Victron as they are much better for the same price. The Studers on my boat are the 2nd Studer i am installing myself, so not so much experience with them yet. You can adjust and modify so much more then with Victron.

[Chartist]

Hi. Thanks for your reply . I will try Suder hopefully.

[T1 Terry]

The Victron inverters delay start up to allow for precharge circuits to charge up the capacitors, do Studer offer the same?

Do the Studer units have the power assist feature? Being able to drop the shore power max to under 10 amps safe guards against overloading standard 10 amp power points or tripping the shore power circuit breaker, the power assist feature allows for the peak loads to be powered without voltage drop being a problem.

Victron inverters will hold off on connecting to mains/shore power while it tests the quality of the supply and if there is an upstream earth/neutral link. If the earth/neutral link is detected, the relay that creates the earth/neutral link is opened, then the shore power connected ..... Do the Studer units do this?

A fixed earth/neutral link will cause an upstream earth/neutral link to trip, if you have an isolating transformer than that is not a problem, but land based installations don't need them so don't have them, so if there is no switchable earth/neutral link, mains or shore power is going to be problematic ....

Just want to ensure we are comparing apples with apples, that's all .....

T1 Terry

[T1 Terry]

Looking on the interweb, I couldn't find any answer to the questions above, nor if they were able to be linked to increase the peak load or how they load share.
The other think I noticed, operating temp is -20C to 55C, they would just about survive at the -20C in most parts of Australia, but the 55C would rule out summer anywhere away from the coast or down on the southern island. 45C ambient will see the inverter internal temp climb above the 60C mark, we actually see 55C ambient in many parts of Australia ...... that is when the inverter is needed the most to power the air conditioner, there is no finding a shaded spot at 55C ambient that will save you from heat stress ....

The Victron will keep going at 70C, yes, you need more of them to share the derated load, but they still keep feeding the power to drive the air conditioners and fridges and freezers.

T1 Terry

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

Looking on the interweb, I couldn't find any answer to the questions above, nor if they were able to be linked to increase the peak load or how they load share.
The other think I noticed, operating temp is -20C to 55C, they would just about survive at the -20C in most parts of Australia, but the 55C would rule out summer anywhere away from the coast or down on the southern island. 45C ambient will see the inverter internal temp climb above the 60C mark, we actually see 55C ambient in many parts of Australia ...... that is when the inverter is needed the most to power the air conditioner, there is no finding a shaded spot at 55C ambient that will save you from heat stress ....

The Victron will keep going at 70C, yes, you need more of them to share the derated load, but they still keep feeding the power to drive the air conditioners and fridges and freezers.

T1 Terry

Here you can find the manuals and further data specs

https://studer-innotec.com/de/downloads/

In short, to all above yes.
You can link them and load share like Victrons. They have power assist similar to Victron and standby usage is better then Victron plus switch on logic better then Victron.
The programming is a bit more complex as they are more versatile then Victrons, the interface is not that smooth graphically with tick boxes. If you get their logic its simple taking the codes from the list in the manual and set the parameter, job done.

Studer is the reason Victron had to extend warranty to 10years, they offered that from beginning. Many in Europe in proffessional grid installations swapped from Victron to Studer in the last years, especially in harsh environments.

The Studer are more rugged then Victron as the XTM are real low frequency inverters made to swiss military standards, developed and made in switzerland. From -20 till 55C operation temps they keep their ratings, no derating like Victrons, above they derate.expect them to run in more harsh environment then Victron, they have more headroom too.
Eg my Studer XTM 24-3500 (3000VA/3500VA for 30min/9000W peak 5s from -20C till 55C) has the same torrodial transformator that can be found in Victrons 5000VA Multi and Quattros.

[Chartist]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

The Victron inverters delay start up to allow for precharge circuits to charge up the capacitors, do Studer offer the same?

Do the Studer units have the power assist feature? Being able to drop the shore power max to under 10 amps safe guards against overloading standard 10 amp power points or tripping the shore power circuit breaker, the power assist feature allows for the peak loads to be powered without voltage drop being a problem.

Victron inverters will hold off on connecting to mains/shore power while it tests the quality of the supply and if there is an upstream earth/neutral link. If the earth/neutral link is detected, the relay that creates the earth/neutral link is opened, then the shore power connected ..... Do the Studer units do this?

A fixed earth/neutral link will cause an upstream earth/neutral link to trip, if you have an isolating transformer than that is not a problem, but land based installations don't need them so don't have them, so if there is no switchable earth/neutral link, mains or shore power is going to be problematic ....

Just want to ensure we are comparing apples with apples, that's all .....

T1 Terry

T1 Terry
Some Studer inverters offer an automatic link that can be installed to.make the inverter neutral earth link.
Victron I believe fantastic for utilising mains or generator supplies , but Chinese manufacturers don't even address the question of neutral to earth because their regulations differ from European regulations. OK they can market their off grid inverters in Europe , but nobody will explain how the equivalent safety is achieved, maybe because equivalent safety is achieved by cutting the battery DC side rather than the AC output.. which is fine in BS 7671 but not explained in the manuals.

My interest in inverters is in Kurdistan where the supply transformer links neutral to earth but no other earth cable is installed. So if you install an earth, it will attract leakage from the whole road.. Not many boats or caravans in Kurdistan. Every where has different rules.

Victron have designed their products for many different locations , regulations temperatures etc. My immediate focus is on how to comply with British regulations because we are facing power cuts soon. Studer's new products are addressing this problem by tie -ing the inverter to the Mains supply and that is the way EV charging is also going.

[T1 Terry]

Originally Posted by Chartist

T1 Terry
Some Studer inverters offer an automatic link that can be installed to.make the inverter neutral earth link.
Victron I believe fantastic for utilising mains or generator supplies , but Chinese manufacturers don't even address the question of neutral to earth because their regulations differ from European regulations. OK they can market their off grid inverters in Europe , but nobody will explain how the equivalent safety is achieved, maybe because equivalent safety is achieved by cutting the battery DC side rather than the AC output.. which is fine in BS 7671 but not explained in the manuals.

My interest in inverters is in Kurdistan where the supply transformer links neutral to earth but no other earth cable is installed. So if you install an earth, it will attract leakage from the whole road.. Not many boats or caravans in Kurdistan. Every where has different rules.

Victron have designed their products for many different locations , regulations temperatures etc. My immediate focus is on how to comply with British regulations because we are facing power cuts soon. Studer's new products are addressing this problem by tie -ing the inverter to the Mains supply and that is the way EV charging is also going.

For system with a floating line 1 and line 2, so no neutral/earth link, we use a an RVD rather than an RCD. The RVD looks for any voltage on the earth wire and causes a load across the RCD and in turn, it cuts the circuit. Most generators have a floating line 1 and line 2 two, so an RCD will not sense current on the earth return circuit so will not trip. Often it's safer to have a floating system rather than a neutral/earth link system, like where the cable runs are very long, the wire length from the fault to the RCD can have enough resistance to hold the circuit below the 30ma required to trip an RCD. The RVD only requires voltage to be apparent on the earth return to trip.
Because the RVD incorporates an RCD in its design, it can perform both duties, yet not throw a fault in asn up line RCD because another fault to earth is sensed, this is what the first RCD sees the up stream earth/neutral link to be, a fault from the neutral to the earth circuit.
The ones we use even sense if the active and neutral are reversed on the shore power supply and immediately trip saving the system from further damage.
We buy our RVD-EMR from these people https://www.rvdsafe.com.au/ Our contact is Ian Martin and if you mention T1 Terry ....... it probably won't cost you any extra :lol:

T1 Terry

[Chartist]

That is so helpful . Thanks.
I talked recently with the top man at IET on Battery storage and inverter systems but the detailed practical knowledge and solutions seems to be kept rather secret.
I've thought about going on a course, but you rarely get answers about practical solutions.

Many thanks. Anas.