Torqeedo Cruise 4 long term review

[barrymac]

Hi All,

I'm writing to give a review of my torqeedo outboard, which I've had for about 3 years now.

Good stuff first. As a replacement for a petrol outboard, it's fantastic. this is mostly the obvious advantages of any electric outboard.

• much kinder to the marine ecosystem
• no pull start for lighter people (safety advantage)
• extremely precise control
• super quiet so you can talk about the scenery without shouting
• no smell of petrol on board, includes main vessel
• plenty power
• pretty reliable

However some reasons I will not be a torqeedo customer in future are as follows:

• Crazy expensive, when I bought it I didn't find any established competitors and really wanted to go electric. Today a single 24v 3500Wh battery, which you need two for costs about 4 times more per Kwh than other high quality cells, even when factoring in integrated BMS
  . https://www.torqeedo.com/en/products...0/2106-00.html
  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001...%2315608%23200
• Charging Problems - they have never, not since new, registered 100% charge. I've never shorted them or abused them in any way, and now they won't charge at all. not with solar chargers, or with mains chargers. this is the last straw.
• Support - You are totally on your own. No support I have ever tried to get has resulted in any material help or solution. they have a support ticket system, I have no idea why.
• Cost of parts - the flimsy plastic propeller which is very easily chipped is about 150 euros. It's that flimsy that one of them even got washed off it's splines by a wave when it was on the dinghy hanging on the derricks. You can't find them hardly anywhere, so you can be really stuck when this expensive delicate propeller gets broken or decides to end it's own life.
• It's not made for salt water at all. The connections that come with the motor are not in the slightest bit waterproof. Mine dissolved with electrolysis because I left the battery pack switched on overnight and there was enough saltwater for 48V to eat through them pretty fast. There was almost nothing left in the morning. There are delicate nmea2000 connections between batteries and motor, which are also very susceptible to electrolysis and I've replaced many times, and none of the "smart" features work without it. I replaced this connection with a beefy electric car connection that I got from China, which is way way better and much more water proof.
  I also built my own box to protect the batteries, as they need to be covered, despite all their claims of them having the most amazing BMS and the batteries being submersible etc etc. they make a lot of claims which are simply not true.
• Solar chargers - when they are connected (comes with bolted connections) there are leds flashing constantly draining energy. There's a reassuring load spark when you connect them to the separate charging terminals, without any panels being connected. So that's another connection I'll need to replace with my own solution. Torqeedo told me I would only be able to use their expensive panels of course, which is also not true.
• The smart features simply don't work and never did. One reason I thought justified the outrageous cost of their batteries was the integration with the BMS and motor which has a GPS and can calculate your range at whatever speed. Well it has never worked since day one. The last time I had a surprise I have dramatically run out of energy when the thing told me I had 24% battery left, and about 16km range at the speed I was doing at the time. This totally negates the advantage of having electric, and the cost of the fancy BMS integration. In fact it turns those advantages into disadvantages because you are at the mercy of whatever the thing decides to tell you on the day, but don't actually know what's going to happen next! Bring your oars. At this rate, I'd be better off with third party batteries that at least have a functioning remaining charge indicator.
• they claim to have a system for detecting propeller fouling that removes the need for a shear pin. It has never worked, as I have propped lines and and scraped a bit of sand and it was always my own reaction time that beat their supposed 1000Hz resistance sampling. you'd really want a system like that to work when you have such a delicate and expensive plastic prop, that you can't find anywhere. Again, a claimed advantage is turned into a disadvantage. At least a shear pin would work, and could be easily maintained.

In short Torqeedo claim a lot of things which are not true, charge a fortune, and don't support their products when they fail to meet the expectations they have set for them.

[NaClyDog]

Thank you very much for this. Moving to an all electric solution had us seriously looking into this. Getting any pre-sales info from them as been near impossible.


Are you investigating any viable alternatives?

[Adelie]

There’s ElectricPaddle that can push you at displacement speeds. 24v, small and light, $1600 or so.

There are electric outboards from China via Amazon. $330 for a 1kW, 48x. I’m going to try it eventually just for kicks. Only trouble is cobbling together a battery.

[barrymac]

With the price of the chinese batteries compared to the ones, and including the fact that the integration doesn't really work, their batteries aren't worth it.

I'm even consider ditching their batteries at this point, at least I'd get a working remaining charge indication, over bluetooth and what not.

[arsenelupiga]

that is no good. Expensive 'save planet' investment. I have T 1003 and fits well for our needs. Not well build but will probably remain electric.

[SV__Grace]

I'm very happy with our Torqeedo Travel and had to look up the "Cruise 4" and on their website I learned that it's an 8hp equivalent outboard for boats up to 4 tons and is currently listed at $4,500.00. Yep, seems pricey, but for me it's a fine tradeoff for skipping the maintenance/repair, oil changes, fuel needs, and noise of an outboard.

Thanks for sharing your experiences and opinions about it. In return, and for the benefit of others in CF, I'd like to share my review of the Travel, which you might find interesting-

Cruiser's Guide to Using the Torqeedo Travel

We are full time PNW cruisers who anchor 99.9% of the time and rely on our dinghy to get to shore and back to our boat.

We've had our Torqeedo (Travel 1003) for 3 years and love it. It is outside mounted on the dinghy (in the davits on passage, in the water- salt water, when at anchor) all year around, in cold, rain, snow, heat, and spray from sailing. We've found it to be super reliable.

It is not perfect (see below) but far superior to dealing with gas engines, propane, etc. The fuel is free! During the summer on the hook we charge it using the solar panel, and during the winter when running the generator so it doesn't cost anything to charge it. We love the quiet, and we're not in a hurry so don't need our dinghy to plane.

1. First, get the extended range battery. With over 900wh it's range is easily more than 5 miles.

2. Start slow and get spare shear pins. We learned the hard way that the torque of electric engines at fast start up is enough to shear the pin. So start the throttle slow and gradually speed up. We haven't sheared a pin due to torque since we started doing that, though hitting kelp or anything harder will do it. In a pinch, if you don't have a spare shear pin, we've used a thick cotter pin cut to fit.

3. Learn how to care for a lithium battery. I spoke with a factory rep at a boat show who said that most complaints come from owners who don't know how to use their lithium battery correctly. Do NOT keep it topped off and charge frequently. Let it run down to 30-50% before recharging. This battery actually prefers a partial SOC, so if you're not going to use it for awhile, store it with 50-80% SOC.

4. Screw the terminals on straight! If you're not careful it is easy to screw them on crooked and it won't work.

5. Get a spare prop. Like all dinghy outboards, the prop is small and relatively inexpensive. The Torqeedo prop is plastic and lasts a long time if it doesn't hit anything, which you can't always control.

6. Security- we use an outboard engine lock that covers the transom handles and a bike lock that goes from the battery handle to the outboard engine lock. I've seen owners use a padlock through the holes of the transom handles (facing each other), but they are plastic and that's not secure enough for me.

7. Get the solar panel. If you live on the hook as we do, you are energy conscious and the solar panel, though expensive, is very well made, durable, and worth the bucks. If you dock your boat in a marina, don't bother with the solar panel.

8. Don't bother with the bluetooth dongle. I love gadgets and this works well to easily see your speed, energy usage, etc. while under way, but the same information can be obtained by leaning over and looking at the display on the tiller. I found myself not using this gadget after first playing with it.

9. Slow down! The battery lasts amazingly long at low speeds, and gets depleted quick at higher speeds. A typical dinghy trip from our anchored boat to shore is @1/4 mile and typically uses 6-8% of battery round trip at 4-5 knots or so in calm conditions. That same trip will use 20% or so at full throttle going 7-8 knots (in our 135 lb hard plastic dinghy with 350 lbs of people and stuff). It's nice to know the power is there when you need it (we've powered through 5 foot waves against 35 knot winds to get back to our boat) but it's even nicer to relax and enjoy the view in a leisurely trip to shore and back. We've gone 2-3 miles at a time exploring remote anchorages, getting back to the boat with plenty of battery power to spare (extended range battery).

[searoom]

We have the Torqueedo Travel on a 17’ Daysailer. I love this motor. We are able to head out the Essex River and as we rig up and approach the bay I can pull the motor off with one hand and stow. No worries about fuel spill and we get enough hours of charge to get out and back with some reserve.

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by NaClyDog

Thank you very much for this. Moving to an all electric solution had us seriously looking into this. Getting any pre-sales info from them as been near impossible.


Are you investigating any viable alternatives?

Check out E-propulsion, made in Santa Ana, Ca. Still not cheap but you'll probably get better support (should you need it) They seem to be targeting Torqueedo's market as all their sales comparisons are versus Torqueedo.

[AJ_n_Audrey]

SV_Grace has covered most of the points I was going to make. I got my Torqeedo last year, and I've been very happy with it. In most situations, it's all you need. If you go at half speed it lasts forever. I will take a 15 HP gas outboard as well, but that is only going to get used when really needed.

[zstine]

Torqeedo does seem very pricey. They want $99 for their small plastic props, while Honda charges $40 for plastic and $90 for Aluminum props (from defender). And $1000 for a plastic folding prop! haha That's just dumb when you can 3D print one for a small fraction of that price.


It makes zero sense that another brand solar panel can't charge the Torqueedo battery. As long as you get a panel with similar Volt and Amps, The Charge controller will modify the output to work with the battery. yes you may have to splice on a connector.



No other competitors! huh? Amazon has many up to 5hp for under $500 and 10hp claimed (really 2200W or 3hp) for ~$800. Prices don't include a battery, but there's plenty of competition. Oh, I see the 3hp Torqeedo is only 520W motor.. so less than 1hp!! haha. they spec a static thrust of 70lbs, that trawling motor size!



Any battery making the correct voltage should work unless the Torqeedo motor software needs to 'talk' to a proprietary battery BMS. If that is the case, that would be a 100% show stopper for me... that's why I don't buy i-phone, it doesn't play nice. But the spare 'Travel" battery is $999. You can get a 36V, 31Ahr battery for under $300..



IMO, Torqeedo seems way too high in their pricing... about 3-4 times what a generic equivalent costs and double what name brands like Honda charge.

[kirklkjb]

Minn Kota and others are providing electric motors that are quite powerful.

You can get transom mount electric motors and some pretty powerful stern mount trolling motors that all use external battery hookups so you can build/supply your own Li battery. A 12V 100ah Battleborn or other brand is about a $1000. There are much cheaper versions and if you want you can build a 12V 280ah LifePO4 battery w BMS and a lot of bells and whistles for that same $1000 or less.

There are some pretty robust connectors for the Minn Kotas and they've been around for a long time for both salt and fresh water uses.

None are what I'd call cheap. For sure I think someone could build their own using Minn Kota + a remote Li battery + solar. But then you'd have to build it, support and maintain it yourself. Renogy and Victron all have the BMSs etc to build a nice Li battery setup.

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

3. Learn how to care for a lithium battery. I spoke with a factory rep at a boat show who said that most complaints come from owners who don't know how to use their lithium battery correctly. Do NOT keep it topped off and charge frequently. Let it run down to 30-50% before recharging. This battery actually prefers a partial SOC, so if you're not going to use it for awhile, store it with 50-80% SOC.


9. It's nice to know the power is there when you need it (we've powered through 5 foot waves against 35 knot winds to get back to our boat) but it's even nicer to relax and enjoy the view in a leisurely trip to shore and back. We've gone 2-3 miles at a time exploring remote anchorages, getting back to the boat with plenty of battery power to spare (extended range battery).

The battery is small and insufficient and with a very limited radius already.
So what am I supposed to do ? Go to shore or where ever with a less than full battery ?

Even with the fast charger it takes a long time to get the battery full.
What am I supposed to do ? Plan my day acc to a stupid battery ?

It´s not relaxing when I am forced to relax

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by zstine

Any battery making the correct voltage should work unless the Torqeedo motor software needs to 'talk' to a proprietary battery BMS. If that is the case, that would be a 100% show stopper for me... that's why I don't buy i-phone, it doesn't play nice. But the spare 'Travel" battery is $999. You can get a 36V, 31Ahr battery for under $300..

YES, a VERY!! proprietary motor software and VERY!! proprietary battery BMS
for 8P 8S configuration.. you put in too much and the thing shuts down.
No running the motor of solar panel.... and their 50W panel is an absolute joke.

Only hack is trimmed DC - DC converter but even so with turtle speed limits.

But surprising thing about the small motors.... only 50% efficiency.
Seems like their marketing is more efficient

[UYA]

Here is my experience with a Torqueedo Travel, bought new in 2017 and sold after 2 years of daily use after having is repaired multiple times on warranty in Guadeloupe.

I really like the concept. Torqeedo did a great job thinking this up:

• integrated system
• battery can be easily taken off for charging or exchange
• motor can be disassembled into 3 pieces without and tools
• display shows distance left depending on battery state and current consumption

=> great!

No what is not very great is the implementation details of the product (which have nothing to do with it being an electric motor). This is anything but great German engineering, it is a joke. Let me give some examples why I think so:

• The O rings between the black engine part in the water are not salt water resistant. A Torqeedo dealer told me they need to be changed after 100 hours in the water - not driving - just sitting there. 100 hours is 4 days When they fail water gets into the motor and or controller unit => it will be garbage (happened to us)
• The cover over the display is glued on. The glue is not heat resistant. In the tropics it will just come off and water will get into the unit (happened to us twice)
• The connectors between the battery, motor and tiller are plastic. Definitely not heavy duty - you need to be super careful not to get them on wrong and destroying them (happened to us)

=> poor execution

=> great concept, poorly executed, sold for a too expensive price.

For me this concept is the future for little dinghy engines. But the price needs to come down and the quality must improve. I am curious to see how its direct competitor ePropulsion is doing in this regard. It's a little cheaper but I haven't see the quality.

[barrymac]

Originally Posted by zstine

Torqeedo does seem very pricey. They want $99 for their small plastic props, while Honda charges $40 for plastic and $90 for Aluminum props (from defender). And $1000 for a plastic folding prop! haha That's just dumb when you can 3D print one for a small fraction of that price.


It makes zero sense that another brand solar panel can't charge the Torqueedo battery. As long as you get a panel with similar Volt and Amps, The Charge controller will modify the output to work with the battery. yes you may have to splice on a connector.



No other competitors! huh? Amazon has many up to 5hp for under $500 and 10hp claimed (really 2200W or 3hp) for ~$800. Prices don't include a battery, but there's plenty of competition. Oh, I see the 3hp Torqeedo is only 520W motor.. so less than 1hp!! haha. they spec a static thrust of 70lbs, that trawling motor size!



Any battery making the correct voltage should work unless the Torqeedo motor software needs to 'talk' to a proprietary battery BMS. If that is the case, that would be a 100% show stopper for me... that's why I don't buy i-phone, it doesn't play nice. But the spare 'Travel" battery is $999. You can get a 36V, 31Ahr battery for under $300..



IMO, Torqeedo seems way too high in their pricing... about 3-4 times what a generic equivalent costs and double what name brands like Honda charge.

Well a 3D printed prop won't have anything like the structural performance of a molded one of course, unless you've got a very fancy 3D printer that can do continuous carbon fibre or some other exotic material.

so there are plenty competitors now, but I didn't find them back when I bought this setup.

So while torqeedo would not give me any help with solar panels, I have used the chargers with generic solar panels that are similar spec and they worked fine, for a while.

The batteries don't charge in any way now though. I have support issues unanswered for 3 months.

It's pretty bad show not to give any support whatsoever for a setup that cost about 10k euro. You must buy two of each type of charger to symmetrically charge the pair of 24v cells.

And I agree I hate the fact that their BMS integration is totally proprietary. They claim it is possible however to calibrate the engine computer for use with third party batteries though. However if that claim is anything like other claims, then it probably won't work.

With a generic BMS that has a bluetooth output a simple mobile app could give you the estimate easily enough.