Trojan lithium drop in replacement

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

The poison is that the "drop-in" moniker will lead people to buy first, and read the fine print later, and we know how much time people spend reading fine print. I expect most buyers will assume no action is required WRT the rest of their power system, and off they will go.


I fear it will all end badly 3 to 5 years from now, and give LFP a really bad name.

That fear is already a reality in far too many installations. The ruined drop in on our bench right now has less than 250 cycles (based on the owners best guesses) and we were flat out told by the manufacturer to tell the customer to stop using it immediately. (discharge graph looked like shark teeth with voltage all over the place)

What was never accounted for in this install was an alternator that was set at 14.6V and delivered that to the LFP RV battery continuously, even after the battery was already full.

What seems to be misunderstood is that the BMS systems on most of these drop-ins are catastrophe level protection only, not a cycle life optimized BMS...

I suspect Trojan will have a bit of a time when folks start using alternators at up to 14.8V and chargers that deliver 14.8V with 4 hour absorption or longer because they use a bulk X multiplier to figure out absorption duration.

The other drop in and LFP folks are already starting to see this and have re-written manuals and lowered recommended voltages accordingly.

On one hand it seems Trojan has done their homework.. CAN-bus external coms, 300A continuous contactor rating, 1C charging, cell temp protection and cold weather charging guidance are all excellent. On the other hand it would appear they did very little home work on the optimizing cycle life side..

Making a 5000 cycle life claim is certainly bold. To do this while also suggesting 14.8V charging, using lead acid chargers, one could hazard a pretty good guess that the cycling data they used to determine this cycle life claim had zero or almost no absorption time.

[john61ct]

Yes Trojan got very hype-markety wrt their AGM line, to the point that their overall reputation as a company declined in my eyes.

I've heard they will depart that business? Maybe will look to LFP to replace it.

That 5000 cycle claim is indeed very interesting - and positive - but as you say could not be reached taking the Drop-In credo literally with automotive style dumb charge sources.

And yes, when published, their warranty policy fine print may reveal more sensible care requirements.

Perhaps really help educate consumers on LFP House bank usage, rather than just parroting the specs inherited from the industry's dominant military / EV paradigms.

If the internal BMS is **logging** V&A charge/discharge history over time, they could actually be very generous in warranty policy, for those with decent gear, doing a good job at following reco protocols,

And for those **not** following their care specs, much shorter / harsher warranty policies, so the company doesn't get put out of business from the heedless abusers who don't RTFM.

[ranger58sb]

The labeling and the brochure says Lithium Ion. The data sheet says Lithium Iron Phosphate.

Is "Lithium Iron Phosphate" LiFePO4?

Is "Lithium Ion" LiFePO4?

-Chris

[Davidhoy]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

The labeling and the brochure says Lithium Ion. The data sheet says Lithium Iron Phosphate.

Is "Lithium Iron Phosphate" LiFePO4?

Is "Lithium Ion" LiFePO4?

-Chris

Yes, and sometimes.

There are many different battery chemistries that fall under the "lithium ion" banner, with Lithium Iron Phosphate, LiFePO4 for short, being just one of them. LiFePO4 is one of the safest lithium battery chemistries out there, at the expense of energy density. So perhaps not quite as energy dense as some of the cells used in mobile phones, cars, and aircraft, but much less risk of fire or other hazardous events. For the harsh marine environment, this is very important.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

The labeling and the brochure says Lithium Ion. The data sheet says Lithium Iron Phosphate.

Is "Lithium Iron Phosphate" LiFePO4?

Is "Lithium Ion" LiFePO4?

-Chris

To keep it simple:

Lithium Batteries - Non-rechargeable

Lithium-Ion Batteries - Rechargeable

Under the Li-Ion umbrella lie all the rechargeable varying Li-Ion chemistries including LiFePO4...

Trojan is apparently using 26650 (26mm X 65mm) format LiFePO4 cylindrical cells.

[john61ct]

Lithium Ion is the umbrella term, includes dozens of very different chemistries including the ones famous for exploding.

LFP & LiFePO4 are more specific, and do not explode.

Generally speaking includes also slight variations like Winston's ytrium doped "LYP".

[john61ct]

Many cheaper vendors especially Amazon market / eBay / alibaba etc lie about what's inside their powerpak / drop-in batt.

[geoffr]

Interesting option as I'm looking at new batteries.. wonder what the price will be and if they really will be drop-in..


Trojan T-105: 260(L) x 181(W) x 281(H)
Trillium 12.8-92: 259(L) x168(W) x216(H)
Trillium 12.8-110:307(L) x168(W) x221(H)

Trojan T-105: 225 (20HR)
Trillium 12.8-92: 92.5(20HR)
Trillium 12.8-110: 111(20HR)

Trojan T-105: 28 Kg
Trillium 12.8-92: 27 Kg
Trillium 12.8-110: 30 Kg

Note: T-105 are 6V, Trillium are 12V.

[TheOffice]

I spoke to the local ReLion dealer at the boat show">Annapolis Boat show. He said they were drop-ins, but when I asked about my alternator he said "you'll need an external regulator like the Balmar 614". I guess drop in is not turn-key!
I hope to get several more years out of my house bank. I hope to benefit from the mistakes of the early adopters.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by TheOffice

I spoke to the local ReLion dealer at the Annapolis Boat show. He said they were drop-ins, but when I asked about my alternator he said "you'll need an external regulator like the Balmar 614". I guess drop in is not turn-key!
I hope to get several more years out of my house bank. I hope to benefit from the mistakes of the early adopters.

You'd have to change the alt setting if going from FLA to Gel or AGM.... how is this different?

Matt

[Davidhoy]

Originally Posted by TheOffice

I spoke to the local ReLion dealer at the Annapolis Boat show. He said they were drop-ins, but when I asked about my alternator he said "you'll need an external regulator like the Balmar 614". I guess drop in is not turn-key!
I hope to get several more years out of my house bank. I hope to benefit from the mistakes of the early adopters.

Anyone not running an externally regulated alternator on a boat is looking for trouble. Having to change settings is pretty straightforward, no different than if you switched from FLA to AGM. By "drop-in", they mean that you don't have to completely redesign your system around the battery bank, as you would if rolling your own with a (semi) custom BMS. All the low- and high-voltage protection is built into each individual battery.

One thing that is encouraging is the the design and development (they do not say anything about manufacturing) is US-based. I looked at their jobs website, and it looks like the engineering team is based in Georgia. Someone else mentioned it, and I too am curious why only the 92Ah battery has CAN communications built in. Other than getting data and setting parameters, this would also provide a way to update the BMS firmware if/when any bugs are found. It would be nice if there were a marine-specific mode in the firmware so that the batteries could connect to a NMEA 2000 network (N2K is built on top of CAN).

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Davidhoy

Yes, and sometimes.

There are many different battery chemistries that fall under the "lithium ion" banner, with Lithium Iron Phosphate, LiFePO4 for short, being just one of them. LiFePO4 is one of the safest lithium battery chemistries out there, at the expense of energy density.

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

To keep it simple:
Lithium Batteries - Non-rechargeable
Lithium-Ion Batteries - Rechargeable

Under the Li-Ion umbrella lie all the rechargeable varying Li-Ion chemistries including LiFePO4...

Originally Posted by john61ct

Lithium Ion is the umbrella term, includes dozens of very different chemistries including the ones famous for exploding.

LFP & LiFePO4 are more specific, and do not explode.

Thanks, all.

-Chris

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by Davidhoy

One thing that is encouraging is the the design and development (they do not say anything about manufacturing) is US-based.

I spoke with one of the engineers at Trojan today. Cells are made under contract, in China, to Trojan specifications and the rest is currently being built here.

Originally Posted by Davidhoy

Someone else mentioned it, and I too am curious why only the 92Ah battery has CAN communications built in.

This is because approx 80% of Trojans golf business is in 48V systems and the G24 format is a drop-in foot-print for the GC2 format. They did not say the G27 CAN-bus was not going to happen, only that it is only going to be in G24 for the initial launch.

Originally Posted by Davidhoy

Other than getting data and setting parameters, this would also provide a way to update the BMS firmware if/when any bugs are found. It would be nice if there were a marine-specific mode in the firmware so that the batteries could connect to a NMEA 2000 network (N2K is built on top of CAN).

We discussed all that, and more, this is all stuff that may happen down the road. They are trying to launch this at pricing levels comparable to other "drop-ins" such as Relion. Warranty is also supposed to be what I would consider good but, this is not set in stone yet, so I won't mention what I was told because it could change....

Shipping for some models may begin as early as early as late November or early December and pricing should be solidified within the next few weeks.

I will have to wait and see how pricing is on the G24 because I won't be using the G27 until it features external communication. Oh and internal components are conformally coated and each cell end gets six spot welds or 12 welds per cell.

[ontherocks83]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

I spoke with one of the engineers at Trojan today. Cells are made under contract, in China, to Trojan specifications and the rest is currently being built here.



This is because approx 80% of Trojans golf business is in 48V systems and the G24 format is a drop-in foot-print for the GC2 format. They did not say the G27 CAN-bus was not going to happen, only that it is only going to be in G24 for the initial launch.



We discussed all that, and more, this is all stuff that may happen down the road. They are trying to launch this at pricing levels comparable to other "drop-ins" such as Relion. Warranty is also supposed to be what I would consider good but, this is not set in stone yet, so I won't mention what I was told because it could change....

Shipping for some models may begin as early as early as late November or early December and pricing should be solidified within the next few weeks.

I will have to wait and see how pricing is on the G24 because I won't be using the G27 until it features external communication. Oh and internal components are conformally coated and each cell end gets six spot welds or 12 welds per cell.

I can't wait for you to hopefully do a write up and review on your website!

[john61ct]

I think it's great the Relion rep was honest about the external VR being required.

The big issue with LFP is not just V setpoints, but the very high-CAR endangering the alt.


Also for lead, those not wanting to upfit their alt setup can opt to choose a model batt for House that is already suited for the voltage it puts out.

Let the starter be the buffer and take House offline once fully charged, if concerned about it overcharging.