Victron Smart BMS CL 12V 100A

[timohara]

Hi All

Has anyone out there used the above product ?

I am in process of changing my house batteries from AGM to Lithium - and think the above product will be the perfect solution as a BMS for the Lithium - but also deal with the issue of stopping the lithium or alternator from killing each other.

Would love to know if anyone has used this product ?

Thanks

Tim

[rgleason]

Do you intend to purchase Victron Lithium Batteries? I think this is intended for that, but if it is not I would be interested.

[timohara]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Do you intend to purchase Victron Lithium Batteries? I think this is intended for that, but if it is not I would be interested.

Yes - I will be using Victron Lithium.

[T1 Terry]

Originally Posted by timohara

Yes - I will be using Victron Lithium.

Then use the full bells and whistles Victron control gear because they are designed to work with each other and if there is ever a problem, Victron can't wriggle out of owning the problem by claiming it was a non proprietary piece of equipment that caused the failure ..... Expensive path but you have a big organisation backing their product.

T1 Terry

[timohara]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

Then use the full bells and whistles Victron control gear because they are designed to work with each other and if there is ever a problem, Victron can't wriggle out of owning the problem by claiming it was a non proprietary piece of equipment that caused the failure ..... Expensive path but you have a big organisation backing their product.

T1 Terry

Hi Terry - yes I will. The entire system will be Victron.

[rgleason]

This bms has good features, there are control wires to each battery and there is propably a some balancing between batteries. I believe each battery has a balencing system for its cells.

The BMS control wires are for Victron batteries.

The alternator is connected to the start battery so when the BMS shuts thr alt charging off, the alt is protected from burn out of diodes. Charging by alt is limited to 80% of a 100a fuse (max).

Does not make sense to use other than victron batteries. Looks like a good set of features and it is all worked out.

[T1 Terry]

This is one of the few exceptions where multiple "drop in" batteries work in parallel, because there is a very sophisticated BMS in each battery that links to a central BMS system so load sharing and recharge sharing does actually occur. The price is a tad frightening, but if price is not an issue then probably one of the better if not best drop in battery set ups .... as long as the directions are followed to the letter, a very expensive learning curve otherwise ....... not a system for those who think they know better than the designer and try to change things to how they think will work better.


We integrate quite a few of the newest Victron Smart products into our proprietary BMS system, but the price of the Victron battery packs and associated gear required put them well outside the price range many if not all RV retro fit customers are willing to spend, and not certain there would be anything to gain except for the fact the batteries are sort of plug and play ... sort of because everything still needs to be programmed into the central control GX unit so it can then work with each unit in the network ... not really a job for someone without the skill set required so Victron lock out the "non trained in the ways of Victron" from their systems by using a password. This really makes the whole system a technician install type affair so the DIY aspect isn't there that many see as a way to cut costs.


T1 Terry

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

This is one of the few exceptions where multiple "drop in" batteries work in parallel,...price is a tad frightening, ..probably one of the better if not best drop in battery set ups
.. not a system for those who think they know better than the designer and try to change things to how they think will work better.

We integrate quite a few of the newest Victron Smart products into our proprietary BMS system..
...everything still needs to be programmed into the central control GX unit so it can then work with each unit in the network ... not really a job for someone without the skill set required so Victron lock out the "non trained in the ways of Victron" from their systems by using a password. This really makes the whole system a technician install type affair so the DIY aspect isn't there that many see as a way to cut costs.
T1 Terry

Thanks for the clarification. Really? If I purchase all Victron I am locked out from setting it up?
Since posting this I have studied the BMS and Smart BMS systems more and they are differently wired.

Smart BMS CL 12/100 has two dedicated + connections for LFP and FLA and uses control wires for LED, Buzzer and Relay

Could the Smart BMS control wire for LED Buzzer and Relay act reliably as a field disconnect for the alternator as a backup? or is it momentary. I believe it is high voltage when activeated. This may not work, but the Alternator + is connected to the FLA/AGM battery anyway so it is protected.

BMS 12/200 uses Alternator + direct to FLA battery with a common + for all devices, chargers and FLA and LFP batteries, and a (AB) FLA battery minus connection to the BMS, a separate LFP minus to the BMS, (LB) Chargers and Solar minus connection.


Which is a better system?

[T1 Terry]

I have never attempted to install a full Victron system and certainly never one where mixed battery chemistry batteries were used in the system. To get the Victron inverters to parallel together and work in conjunction with a GX management unit as the central control for all the Victron units in the network, a special interface cable is needed so each item can be brought up to the latest version before any interconnection can take place. This action requires the secret handshake/password to actually get the version upgrades done, and then to correctly integrate them into one network.
You need the latest Smart BMS gear if you want it to Bluetooth to a phone or screen and to link back to the interweb or satellite to get the latest versions downloaded automatically where they have patched faults in the software or completely changed some parameters etc. When we install the 712 BMV monitors to a new system, they have 2 or 3 upgrades to do before they will operate, each version that is the latest in that configuration has to be running before the next upgrade can take place and so on .... if the whole system is not integrated, some items will upgrade the first time you are within interweb range, yet other items won't and the whole network locks up and you have a hell of a mess to sort before it will all work together again.
You hear a lot of complaints about Victron products just stopping working when they reach a spot where the interweb reaches, this might be the real cause of their problems, the network was not set up as an integrated unit but rather a patched together set up .....
Victron have made huge leaps forward in their system design and continuously upgrade the software and this makes it even more critical a master Victron specialist installer does the final integration of all the networks .... finding one who is willing to work on something they didn't install or a member of this elite group that they can contact directly to clarify something, might be a case of mission impossible ..... Best to find out these things before you leap in and purchase/install a heap of very expensive gear, only to find those that really know what they are doing won't touch the system you have installed ..... there are a million and one people out there who say they know they are doing, very few who really do know


T1 Terry

[rgleason]

Thanks Terry,

I appreciate that LFP is not necessarily simple, however my system will actually be quite simple, and the Smart BMS would be the basis I think.

[T1 Terry]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Thanks Terry,

I appreciate that LFP is not necessarily simple, however my system will actually be quite simple, and the Smart BMS would be the basis I think.

What I was trying to say, the Victron system as an integrated unit will simplify the operation and reliability of the system as a whole, but there is nothing simple about configuring all the bits into an integrated network that will actually work without causing continued ongoing headaches

T1 Terry

[bstreep]

Not sure I understand everything you are saying. However, we've just installed a 500ah lithium bank. We also have an AGM start battery. In order to keep the 2 battery types separated, we have a 12VDC to 12VDC charger from Victron. Any alternator overflow to the start battery goes to the lithium house bank. We have a Victron 120amp charger, and a Victron battery monitor in the mix as well.

[T1 Terry]

Originally Posted by bstreep

Not sure I understand everything you are saying. However, we've just installed a 500ah lithium bank. We also have an AGM start battery. In order to keep the 2 battery types separated, we have a 12VDC to 12VDC charger from Victron. Any alternator overflow to the start battery goes to the lithium house bank. We have a Victron 120amp charger, and a Victron battery monitor in the mix as well.

That is the best way to keep the two chemistries separate. I may have read it wrong it it seemed to me rgleason wanted the BMS to take care of the lithium and lead acid battery as well. A simple contactor linking the two systems together until the lithium battery reaches 100% SOC would work fine ... except there is nothing to protect the alternator from being overloaded and burning out without a special alternator regulator that senses alternator temp as well and limits the output to save the alternators life ....
The system starts to get more complex the further you go, the DC to DC will limit the charging to 30 amps so no problem for the alternator, but it would certainly extend the run time required to bring the battery back to 100% SOC

T1 Terry

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

That is the best way to keep the two chemistries separate. I may have read it wrong it it seemed to me rgleason wanted the BMS to take care of the lithium and lead acid battery as well. A simple contactor linking the two systems together until the lithium battery reaches 100% SOC would work fine ... except there is nothing to protect the alternator from being overloaded and burning out without a special alternator regulator that senses alternator temp as well and limits the output to save the alternators life ....
The system starts to get more complex the further you go, the DC to DC will limit the charging to 30 amps so no problem for the alternator, but it would certainly extend the run time required to bring the battery back to 100% SOC
T1 Terry

"..BMS take care of LFP and FLA"

• Never said that here or anywhere!
• I did say in several threads that LFP and FLA paralleled with a BMS operated "external relay" between these batteries, similar to Franz Veldman Lithium Hybrid System and several others. See
  • https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3308005
  • https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3308335
  • https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3308833
  • https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3298652
• The Alt, Chargers and Loads are connected to the FLA side in his system.
• All chargers conform to LFP charge requirements in his system, (AGM/FLA batts may not be fully maintained at full charge)
• Alt Regulator is Wakespeed WS500 or Al Thompson's VSR Alternator Regulator which sense current with a shunt, or Balmar ARS5 /614, all properly programmed.
• All regulators have temp sensors for batteries and alternator.
• The AGM/FLA battery provides transient spike protection from BMS shutdown via the external relay (HVD, LVD, HCD, cell problems etc)

"... A simple contactor linking the two systems together until the lithium battery reaches 100% SOC would work fine"

• Yes. All "throw-ins" should permit connection of an external relay controlled by the BMS for advanced disconnect, then hot and efficiency limited DC DC chargers would be unnecessary when using these.

"...except there is nothing to protect the alternator from being overloaded and burning out without a special alternator regulator that senses alternator temp as well and limits the output to save the alternators life ...."

• I have listed the regulators which cover that.
• However Wakespeed and Balmar both call for a load dump in small writing (which is the AGM/FLA battery of adequate size).

"...The system starts to get more complex the further you go, the DC to DC will limit the charging to 30 amps so no problem for the alternator, but it would certainly extend the run time required to bring the battery back to 100% SOC"

• This is a completely different system design that we were discussing, pros/cons, that can use "throw in", whoops I mean "drop in" LFP. None of these "drop-in" LFP, have external control wires to operate an external relay in advance of LFP shutdown (absolutely needed if you are going to parallel LFP and FLA with a BMS controlled relay between!)
• Here is a thread with that discussion https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3308335
• Here is another one https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...-244302-2.html
• Therefore with expensive "throw in batteries" the two banks are separate and the LFP is forced to use a multiple DC/CC chargers which is inefficient and causes excess heat.

We have not talked about, in this thread, a system that has a dual port BMS which can control two external or internal relays, one for the charge bus and one for the discharge loads.

The Victron Smart BMS CL 12v 100a is appropriate for my requirements, and is what I would like, but it is pretty unlikely I will end up with this system given the fact that Victron it is more expensive and does not permit DIY install according to Terrry.

[rgleason]

Terry regarding this statement:

"...certainly never one where mixed battery chemistry batteries were used in the system" here
It is unclear exactly what you mean, but the implication is that this should not be done....
It is perfectly ok provided you have a relay operated by the LFP BMS to disconnect, in which case the Alternator is connected to the AGM/FLA which protects the alternator from spikes and transients.
This is normal and expected and even requested in fine print by Balmar and Wakespeed.