Canadian COVID-19 News

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by desodave

So the QR code produced by BC doesn't meet standards? How?

Originally Posted by Scorpius

I suspect it's because we put our system together in a hell of a hurry (like a week) and I suspect there was no time for consultations or do more than the absolute bare bones.

I assume Scorpius is correct. Wasn't BC quite early off the mark with their QR-passport? Ontario just came out with theirs. I downloaded mine (I'm an Ontario resident), and it clearly includes both the Ontario and Canada official logos.


ADD: Thanks Gord.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I agree. My view remains that I am completely in favour of individual choice and action. But I am also completely in favour of individual responsibility and consequence for the choices we make.

You don't want to be vaccinated; fine. But there are consequences. Some of them include restrictions in discretionary activity like going to restaurants or some public spaces. And it may include impacts on employment.

I think we should stop pretending that hardcore anti-vaxxers just need to be reasoned or empathized with. As any parent will tell you, at some point you don't try and reason or empathize with a child. You lay down clear expectations, with clear consequences. And you follow through.

If this is the hill some want to die on, then so be it. Let them. It's their choice. The vast majority will get on with life.

And the consequences, so far, have been the anti-vaxxers being belligerent towards the unfortunate folks who are "in the front lines" of "enforcing" the rules at those places where everyone should wear a mask.


Waitresses and hosts at restaurants didn't sign up to have to put up with loud, foul mouthed, nasty people who ignore the very rules that were designed to keep them safe.


The confrontational attitude of these antis is consistent across the board. They are never "for" something, they are always against somethings. Yeah, for freedumb, but if that's all they got, I ain't buyin'.


These numbskulls harass folks in restaurants and picket hospitals. Sheez, where would they go if they did get sick? If I was a nurse and recognized some bozo this week who was threatening me last week...

[desodave]

Yes ... BC was early. I downloaded mine on Sept 9, a couple of days after the announcement.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by desodave

Yes ... BC was early. I downloaded mine on Sept 9, a couple of days after the announcement.

Me, too, and used it in a restaurant a few days later. I don't have a phone (!!!) and printed mine out. Showed it and my BC services (health and lots of other stuff) card, no problem.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

And the consequences, so far, have been the anti-vaxxers being belligerent towards the unfortunate folks who are "in the front lines" of "enforcing" the rules at those places where everyone should wear a mask.

Waitresses and hosts at restaurants didn't sign up to have to put up with loud, foul mouthed, nasty people who ignore the very rules that were designed to keep them safe.

Completely agree Stu. This kind of behaviour is both childish, immature* and deeply unfair for frontline staff who are only doing their jobs. It is a terrible burden we are putting on these people, but I'll note that we already ask bar staff to enforce provincial drinking laws around serving severely drunk people, or allowing people to drive drunk. It's never fair, but what are the alternatives? We can't station police everywhere.

In cases where belligerence rises to levels of actionable crime, I'm fully in favour of having the full force of the law brought against these entitled folks. But I am wary of giving authorities more power.

*This is why I suggest treating these people like children. As a parent, at some point, you stop trying to reason or empathize with your child. You lay down the law, and you follow through with clear consequences.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Completely agree Stu. This kind of behaviour is both childish, immature* and deeply unfair for frontline staff who are only doing their jobs. It is a terrible burden we are putting on these people, but I'll note that we already ask bar staff to enforce provincial drinking laws around serving severely drunk people, or allowing people to drive drunk. It's never fair, but what are the alternatives? We can't station police everywhere.



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Perhaps there is a middle ground between the low-paid waitstaff or the hostess and the police.


How about the manager of the restaurant get off his backside in the office and go do some work for a change? (Ever work at a restaurant?)


The manager can do something besides shuffling paper on his desk.


I think it's patently unfair to make the lowest paid public staff member do the heavy lifting.


But it doesn't have to be Susy OR the police. Or a bouncer which restaurants don't have.


Or, take the miscreants out to the woodshed. Hmm, I'm rethinking bouncers now...
The one restaurant I went to (and the only one in the past two years!), just show the vax card and go eat. Gee, what a tremendous burden!!!

[danstanford]

I cannot believe you Guys are unable to separate the demonstrating boorish individuals from the people who have so far been unable to justify vaccinating themselves. I know probably 6 people who have not been vaccinated and none of them deserve to be painted with the brush you are using. They accept that there are things they won't be able to do as a consequence of their decision though they sure wish it wasn't a circumstance they were in.

Not only do none of them show militancy or would they berate servers but to date I don't know anyone unvaccinated who would. Do they exist, absolutely. Should those people be punished if they contravene our laws, absolutely.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Perhaps there is a middle ground between the low-paid waitstaff or the hostess and the police.

How about the manager of the restaurant get off his backside in the office and go do some work for a change? (Ever work at a restaurant?)

I did work in a restaurant... many moons ago. Dishwasher.

I've seen many news stories highlighting owners and managers taking over the hosting duties. Some have even hired security staff to do the checks. I would hope most would do this, but not all have the same options.

I really don't think the numbers of boors are large, but it only takes one to really make things ugly.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by danstanford

I cannot believe you Guys are unable to separate the demonstrating boorish individuals from the people who have so far been unable to justify vaccinating themselves. I know probably 6 people who have not been vaccinated and none of them deserve to be painted with the brush you are using. They accept that there are things they won't be able to do as a consequence of their decision though they sure wish it wasn't a circumstance they were in.

Not only do none of them show militancy or would they berate servers but to date I don't know anyone unvaccinated who would. Do they exist, absolutely. Should those people be punished if they contravene our laws, absolutely.

Dan, I don't think that's what any of us Guys have said. No one here has said all unvaccinated people are boors or acting belligerently. In fact, I'm quite certain it is a small portion of the unvaxxed which are making all the noise.

Your six friends are behaving exactly as mature people do. They have made a choice, and they accept the consequences. They may not like it, but mature people know life doesn't always go as one wants.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Mac, just join the Big Quit.

I really hope that one of the lessons people take away from this pandemic is that they really can live on a lot less. They don't really need to work so hard.

This has worked for me for the past nearly seven years .

Amen. I joined the Big Quit this year, as a result of a layoff that butted up against COVID. No regrets.

[desodave]

Originally Posted by danstanford

I cannot believe you Guys are unable to separate the demonstrating boorish individuals from the people who have so far been unable to justify vaccinating themselves. I know probably 6 people who have not been vaccinated and none of them deserve to be painted with the brush you are using. They accept that there are things they won't be able to do as a consequence of their decision though they sure wish it wasn't a circumstance they were in.

Not only do none of them show militancy or would they berate servers but to date I don't know anyone unvaccinated who would. Do they exist, absolutely. Should those people be punished if they contravene our laws, absolutely.

We need to emphasize the "boorish" imo. People in this country are entitled to demonstrate and there's nothing wrong with people that choose to do so ... even when they're protesting something that we think is essential. It's when those protests cross a line ... attacking/impeding/harassing healthcare workers, or parading into schools ... that they become boorish and actionable. Same as the people who choose to berate/assault others just doing their job.
If you treat all of them as childish, you'll get even worse childish reactions out of all of them. Some think they've done all kinds of research in coming to their decisions ... they're just researching in all the wrong places. Some had significant reactions to the first shot and have become very hesitant about a second. You may disagree with their flawed reasoning but they're not freedumb idiots.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Dan, I don't think that's what any of us Guys have said. No one here has said all unvaccinated people are boors or acting belligerently. In fact, I'm quite certain it is a small portion of the unvaxxed which are making all the noise.

Your six friends are behaving exactly as mature people do. They have made a choice, and they accept the consequences. They may not like it, but mature people know life doesn't always go as one wants.

Fair enough Mike, please accept my apologies for not excluding you from the comment. 'You guys' is as encompassing as 'anti-vaxxers'.

Some clips from posts in the last couple of weeks:

And the consequences, so far, have been the anti-vaxxers being belligerent towards the unfortunate folks who are "in the front lines" of "enforcing" the rules at those places where everyone should wear a mask.

Which of the two groups has resorted to violence and intimidation as their "GoTo" choice of first report?
NO! There is NO risk assessment thinking going on with these folks.

There is NO thinking going on with these folks. Risk assessment? You've got to be kidding.

They are either:
• Influenced by their tribe or political leaders (and opposed to anything from the other side)
• Gullible to the point of imbecile when presented with intentional misinformation of social media or right wing broadcast media
• So socially privilged that they have a lot of excess time for these odd ball ideas.
• Just plain intellectually challenged
They have a right to choose for themselves, but must accept the consequences imposed by society, including considerable isolation.

No sympathy, NONE!

One of my recurring thoughts is that it would be enormously illuminating and entertaining to have some means of determining what the correlation is - statistically speaking - between a particular individual's anti-vaccination position and a) his highest year of formal education. b) his "earned income" on his latest T1 Tax Return, c) the type of job he last held, d) his religious affiliation (including "none"), e) his place of domicile between birth and age 7 (the "age of reason" as expounded by the Church of Rome), and last (on my impromptu list) but by no means least, f) the broadcaster or "social medium" he watches the most.

Im sure you can add a dozen personal characteristics to that list!

We might even be able to develop an "Ignorance Quotient". The imagination runs amok! We might even conceive of including this "new style" IQ on people's driver's licenses and Citizenship cards. And perhaps, if he has one, his PCOC ;-)

Agreed, although it seems the unvaxxed are usually the ones who resort to violence as their first GoTo.


I deplore their "position" because it makes no sense, and is irrational.



I detest their methods. Ever hear of "peaceful" protest? Nah, not these goons.

I think a forensic psychologist would have a field day looking at their personalities. Lots of common traits.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by danstanford

I cannot believe you Guys are unable to separate the demonstrating boorish individuals from the people who have so far been unable to justify vaccinating themselves. I know probably 6 people who have not been vaccinated and none of them deserve to be painted with the brush you are using. They accept that there are things they won't be able to do as a consequence of their decision though they sure wish it wasn't a circumstance they were in.

Hi Dan. I appreciate that you are trying to see all sides of this. The problem is that it seems that both the genuinely reluctant, and the loud boors, have likely been confused or influenced by the same misinformation. If more people don't get vaccinated, it will take longer to get out from under COVID, and that will weigh on all of us.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by desodave

We need to emphasize the "boorish" imo. People in this country are entitled to demonstrate and there's nothing wrong with people that choose to do so ... even when they're protesting something that we think is essential. It's when those protests cross a line ... attacking/impeding/harassing healthcare workers, or parading into schools ... that they become boorish and actionable. Same as the people who choose to berate/assault others just doing their job.
If you treat all of them as childish, you'll get even worse childish reactions out of all of them. Some think they've done all kinds of research in coming to their decisions ... they're just researching in all the wrong places. Some had significant reactions to the first shot and have become very hesitant about a second. You may disagree with their flawed reasoning but they're not freedumb idiots.

I completely agree, and I am very wary of the excuse all this boorish activity provides to tighten up laws around legal protest. I think we have the laws necessary to deal with belligerent and threatening behaviour by the few who cannot behave as adults. I do not want to see more power granted to authorities, or further restrictions on the right to protest.

My point about treating them as children is to say that the extremists who are protesting in front of hospitals, or berating young restaurant hosts, are not going to be persuaded by more facts. They will not be reasoned to a reasonable position. In this way, they are acting like children.

Just like children are not always capable of rational reasoning, so too with this group. So the best response is not to fight or argue, but simply to place clear guidelines and boundaries, and then have equally clear consequences which are followed through on. Most kids get the message eventually.

BTW, I think this is how our society is responding. People absolutely have a right not to be vaccinated. But the rest of society also has rights. That's what we're seeing with the use of the vaccine passport systems which all provinces now have (including Alberta).

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

... vaccine passport systems which all provinces now have (including Alberta).

IT'S NOT A PASSPORT!!!