Canadian COVID-19 News

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by N Coast Murray

The unknown factor is...even a very small percentage of people ending up in hospital from a massively huge number of people getting sick might clog up the system and people who need surgeries will have to wait, or maybe die.

I always try to find alternative views and explanations, trying to keep a broader view.

So another way to look at this is that rather than being a symptom of the virus it is a symptom of our culture always trying to get the most for the least.

Somewhat akin to the “supply chain crisis” which could also be called “the failure of JIT distribution” or “the off shoring of our manufacturing and its pollution and wage inequality.”

We have cheaped out on hospital capacity to save a few bucks and now we are caught out.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by hpeer

I always try to find alternative views and explanations, trying to keep a broader view.
...
We have cheaped out on hospital capacity to save a few bucks and now we are caught out.

Wow. I could not agree more with this. In most of my few interactions with our healthcare system, I/we have received appropriate and competent care (for which I am grateful), but my impression is that the hospitals are almost always running at 90+% capacity, with little extra headroom for the unknown, and the reason that this continues to work is due to the high caliber of people in the system. Especially nurses.

Sort of like the joke about the house that was so dilapidated that the only reason it continues to stand is that the termites hold hands.

And like you, I continue to be surprised and concerned that through all 2 years of this, there seems to be little acknowledgment that staffing and facilities need to be increased, to both handle the COVID cases, and to take on the backlog of cases that were pushed aside by the COVID load.

Possibly the most annoying recent expression of this is when Manitoba asked the federal govt to send it something like 30 ICU nurses. I'm thinking... FFS, just go hire some. Their COVID surge wasn't entirely unpredictable, there's retired or otherwise inactive nurses who could be persuaded to come back for a bit, there's other nurses who might wanna transfer into ICU nursing, there's immigration...

[TrentePieds]

LE said " Their COVID surge wasn't entirely unpredictable, there's retired or otherwise inactive nurses who could be persuaded to come back for a bit, there's other nurses who might wanna transfer into ICU nursing, there's immigration..."

Even provincial Minsters of Health have had two years to wake up, even if they were too unconcerned about the portents for future health care, or too dense to understand those portents, well before Covid hit. So why, these two years gone, have they not done exactly what you suggest - go hire some nurses, and maybe expand the physical facilities a bit?

Could it be because those who hold the Health portfolios in the provinces and territories cannot do such things without having a "premier controlled" cabinet fully behind them. And could it be that in some provinces - LE's being but one example - the electorate has been too unconcerned (or too dense) to understand that certain kinds of men (men more than women) should NEVER be given the power that provincial premiers have?

It's a bit pharisaical, I admit, but I think it is notable that John Horgan, rather than hog the spotlight by stepping in front of Adrian Dix, and Adrian Dix rather than hog the spotlight by stepping in front of Bonnie Henry, has left the job to those who "know how".

But even so, lately, we see that the bureaucratic reaction time is a great deal too long to respond to a swift moving threat.

But most of we individual denizens of the provinces and the territories DO know, even if we won't always admit it, that the ONLY way to avoid infection is to avoid breathing air that has already been through someone else's nasal cavities!

While people who fail to take that precaution should obviously still be treated once illness strikes, I think that NOT taking that precaution bespeaks want of social responsibility, and I think there should be consequences. Is there a case to be made for denial of the franchise for people who fail to act responsibly? After all there seems to be a high correlation between such people exercising their franchise and the election of precisely such Premiers as have been our biggest "problem" these last two years.

TP

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

H, the ArriveCAN website specifically includes a section called "Others without Canadian proof of vaccination." It goes through the process of uploading the digital documents. It does not specify having those documents as native-digital, so I assume a scan of your paper document would suffice.

https://travel.gc.ca/travel-covid/tr...g-canada#proof

Mike,

I think I did it. Doris is doing it now.

That link was not at all obvious to me, thanks for the help.

[hpeer]

In the hospital capacity issue……
From MY state side POV….
Here when you go into a Drs. Office, or even a dentist, you are met by a staff dedicated to handling all the paper work including the various insurance forms and payment schemes. Which also means there is an unseen staff in the other end of the phone/internet. This is HUGE layer of unneeded overhead.

Add onto this the medical system burden caused by folks with obesity related diseases.

It is no wonder the USA has the highest health care costs in the world.

Consider this, from yet another point of view, natural forces and adaptation……

Humanity and our associated domestic food stock (animal and grains etc) are by far the most abundant and under utilized food sources on Earth. It only makes sense that nature, is through entropy (second lay of thermodynamics) will attempt to utilize that source and burn through it. It is completely inevitable. Natures attack on this food source will be relentless, and ultimately successful.

It takes only a primary understanding of nature to groc this.

So why are we so totally unprepared?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Stu/Mike;

You can not get 100% of the population to agree the world is round.

Roughly speaking about 40% of the voting population will vote their party, no matter what. Only 60% of the population are in play.

It is a bell curve and the tailings, on any given topic, are real. Just human nature.

Yeah... I do understand the tribal nature of these disagreements. What I don't understand is why tribes choose ignorance or false understandings as their cornerstone. We stand at time when quality information is readily available, and when expertise in many areas has never been better. One can still have plenty of disagreement around policy or even philosophy without staking a claim based on false information or "alternative facts."

Originally Posted by hpeer

Mike,

I think I did it. Doris is doing it now.

That link was not at all obvious to me, thanks for the help.

That great. So glad I could be of some small assistance. Hope it all goes smoothly

[hpeer]

Mike,

It is not just tribal. Yeah the majority are tribal. But some are just contrarian just for the pure cussedness of it.

Or we just dream up something to believe in.

Look at all the various religions, the little cults, some not so small.

It is just part of human nature, which is pretty weird.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Perhaps it is as simple as information overload!

Too much, too fast, too cynical are the sound bite presentations that many feel forced to choose sides, rather than study the sciences.

Maybe... but often the anti-science crowd puts huge effort into concocting their own alternative facts and theories, so it can't just be simple info overload.

There's plenty to disagree about over what we should do about climate change, or nuclear power, or Covid-19, or sex & gender in society, or... any number of other issues, without having to attack the foundational knowledge that science illuminates.

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

LE said " Their COVID surge wasn't entirely unpredictable, there's retired or otherwise inactive nurses who could be persuaded to come back for a bit, there's other nurses who might wanna transfer into ICU nursing, there's immigration..."

Even provincial Minsters of Health have had two years to wake up, even if they were too unconcerned about the portents for future health care, or too dense to understand those portents, well before Covid hit. So why, these two years gone, have they not done exactly what you suggest - go hire some nurses, and maybe expand the physical facilities a bit?

Could it be because those who hold the Health portfolios in the provinces and territories cannot do such things without having a "premier controlled" cabinet fully behind them. And could it be that in some provinces - LE's being but one example - the electorate has been too unconcerned (or too dense) to understand that certain kinds of men (men more than women) should NEVER be given the power that provincial premiers have?

It's a bit pharisaical, I admit, but I think it is notable that John Horgan, rather than hog the spotlight by stepping in front of Adrian Dix, and Adrian Dix rather than hog the spotlight by stepping in front of Bonnie Henry, has left the job to those who "know how".

But even so, lately, we see that the bureaucratic reaction time is a great deal too long to respond to a swift moving threat.

But most of we individual denizens of the provinces and the territories DO know, even if we won't always admit it, that the ONLY way to avoid infection is to avoid breathing air that has already been through someone else's nasal cavities!

While people who fail to take that precaution should obviously still be treated once illness strikes, I think that NOT taking that precaution bespeaks want of social responsibility, and I think there should be consequences. Is there a case to be made for denial of the franchise for people who fail to act responsibly? After all there seems to be a high correlation between such people exercising their franchise and the election of precisely such Premiers as have been our biggest "problem" these last two years.

TP

Losing nurses and other medical staff (many of whom have probably already gained immunity from previous exposure) because of vaccine mandates was likely, in retrospect, not the brightest of policies during an ongoing pandemic, wouldn't you say?

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

LE said " Their COVID surge wasn't entirely unpredictable, there's retired or otherwise inactive nurses who could be persuaded to come back for a bit, there's other nurses who might wanna transfer into ICU nursing, there's immigration..."

Even provincial Minsters of Health have had two years to wake up, even if they were too unconcerned about the portents for future health care, or too dense to understand those portents, well before Covid hit. So why, these two years gone, have they not done exactly what you suggest - go hire some nurses, and maybe expand the physical facilities a bit?

Could it be because those who hold the Health portfolios in the provinces and territories cannot do such things without having a "premier controlled" cabinet fully behind them. And could it be that in some provinces - LE's being but one example - the electorate has been too unconcerned (or too dense) to understand that certain kinds of men (men more than women) should NEVER be given the power that provincial premiers have?

It's a bit pharisaical, I admit, but I think it is notable that John Horgan, rather than hog the spotlight by stepping in front of Adrian Dix, and Adrian Dix rather than hog the spotlight by stepping in front of Bonnie Henry, has left the job to those who "know how".

But even so, lately, we see that the bureaucratic reaction time is a great deal too long to respond to a swift moving threat.

But most of we individual denizens of the provinces and the territories DO know, even if we won't always admit it, that the ONLY way to avoid infection is to avoid breathing air that has already been through someone else's nasal cavities!

While people who fail to take that precaution should obviously still be treated once illness strikes, I think that NOT taking that precaution bespeaks want of social responsibility, and I think there should be consequences. Is there a case to be made for denial of the franchise for people who fail to act responsibly? After all there seems to be a high correlation between such people exercising their franchise and the election of precisely such Premiers as have been our biggest "problem" these last two years.

TP

Losing nurses and other medical staff (many of whom have probably already gained immunity from previous exposure) because of vaccine mandates was likely, in retrospect, not the brightest of policies during an ongoing pandemic, wouldn't you say?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by hpeer

I always try to find alternative views and explanations, trying to keep a broader view.

So another way to look at this is that rather than being a symptom of the virus it is a symptom of our culture always trying to get the most for the least.

Somewhat akin to the “supply chain crisis” which could also be called “the failure of JIT distribution” or “the off shoring of our manufacturing and its pollution and wage inequality.”

We have cheaped out on hospital capacity to save a few bucks and now we are caught out.

So true. But we only have to glance in the mirror to see the root cause of this: us. WE demand the cheapest prices and the lowest taxes. And governments and businesses respond by giving them to us.

But as the saying goes, nothing comes for free. One way to keep prices and taxes down is to increase efficiency in the system. For services like healthcare and Walmarts, that means employing the fewest number of people (at the lowest possible rates). It means JIT delivery because stock in the backroom is just a cost. It means little redundancy in the systems. And yes, it means offshoring production where costs are lower (lower pollution controls, lower wages, lower labour standards, etc.)

[hpeer]

+1
Reap=sow

All we have to do to beat covid and make everything better is to convince humans to be logical.

[TrentePieds]

GregK said: "Losing nurses and other medical staff (many of whom have probably already gained immunity from previous exposure) because of vaccine mandates was likely, in retrospect, not the brightest of policies during an ongoing pandemic, wouldn't you say?"

Well, no, if you mean to say what you seem to say, viz that nurses and other health care professionals withdrew from their employment because of fear of the needle - and what would be in it - then I wouldn't say so at all.

What HAS happened is that many people involved in health care, including the paramedics of the ambulance service and the staff at the 911- call centres, had had too much asked of them for too long, and the extra demands placed on them by the pandemic were the straw that broke the camel's back.

Good management - qua management - involves always having access to alternate sources of required factors of production. What our provincial governments, in whose purview healthcare falls, are guilty of, some more than others, is shoddy management and in many cases disregard of fundamental management principles.

And that comes about IMO when glory hounds such as certain - a few - of our Premiers get in the way of their cabinet ministers and frustrate those ministers' execution of their portfolios because, being glory hounds, they are more concerned with their 15 seconds in the limelight than with the task we elected them to perform. Worse still when cabinet ministers frustrate the professionals in the civil service, such as has been the case with poor Dr. Hinshaw!

So as an admonition for the electorate: Act in haste - repent at leisure :-)!

TP

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

GregK said: "Losing nurses and other medical staff (many of whom have probably already gained immunity from previous exposure) because of vaccine mandates was likely, in retrospect, not the brightest of policies during an ongoing pandemic, wouldn't you say?"

Well, no, if you mean to say what you seem to say, viz that nurses and other health care professionals withdrew from their employment because of fear of the needle - and what would be in it - then I wouldn't say so at all.


TP

It's disappointing to read your dishonest reply disrespecting and insulting medical professionals who after risking their lives for two years during the pandemic have now been forced out against their will through coercive policies which do not and continue to not recognize the validity of natural immunity from previous infection.

That you cannot admit the unnecessary loss of these medical professionals due to a policy that could have been implemented in a much more accommodative yet equally safe manner is astounding to me.

[N Coast Murray]

Anybody else raise an eyebrow when Alberta's Premier Kenny said it would be unfair to clamp down on peoples Christmas celebrations because it would hurt their feelings, knowing full well that when Alberta's hospitals get swamped again he'll start pleading for other Provinces to take his extra Covid patients?

Grrrr...