Canadian COVID-19 News

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

So we have a forum advisor who thinks the Canadians should allow Kia Roa's passage through the NW channel, at the same time as they are jailing others who violate their borders.

To me, the laws should be enforced on everyone the same. It is unequal enforcement that really annoys people. Fine enforcement will never be fair, unless it were framed as a percentage of total wealth. As it is, people with big budgets do not suffer as much from quarantine violation fines as people with small budgets.

Ann

Although I believe Smith can be a minimal risk I tend to agree with Ann here. It is never a good idea to start making exceptions to the law. If the law says no recreational boaters allowed, then why should one man's bucket list dream be allowed while others are turned away?

My understanding of this situation is that Smith initially tried to negotiate an exemption, but was denied. He then decided to ignore Canadian authorities and do it anyway. How is this different than the Kentucky guy?

In addition, Canada's (perhaps weak) claim to the NW Passage as an internal waterway is further weakened every time someone proceeds through without proper authority. So I don't see how Canada has any choice now. It must take some sort of enforcement action.

[nwdiver]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

So we have a forum advisor who thinks the Canadians should allow Kia Roa's passage through the NW channel, at the same time as they are jailing others who violate their borders.

To me, the laws should be enforced on everyone the same. It is unequal enforcement that really annoys people. Fine enforcement will never be fair, unless it were framed as a percentage of total wealth. As it is, people with big budgets do not suffer as much from quarantine violation fines as people with small budgets.

Ann

Who is in jail for violating Canada’s Covid travel regulations?

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I think Canadians should step lightly on this 72 year old Kiwi adventurer, making a right of passage thru disputed territorial waters.

Otherwise you will appear petty and a cowardly bully by picking on an isolated Kiwi rather than all those US boater, doing the same thing in far more populated areas

I applaud him for his resolve and his commitment to maintain isolation away from locals while following his bucket list.

For me the thing is he asked for permission, was denied and went anyway. Such premeditated arrogance needs to be dealt with in an overt and definitive fashion. He can fight it out in court later if he feels he was wronged, but why did he ask for permission if he didn't think he needed it?

But then again I am a Canadian and think defending territorial waters (or claims there to) is a valid expenditure of energy. Seems a lot of people disagree.

Covid wise, it really does scare me when this sort of thing happens so far from any major center. Its just not a necessary risk to the yachtsman himself, potential enforcement people, equally potential rescuers, inhabitants of resupply/shelter stops...

[CruisingCouple]

We sailed our trawler from the Twin Ports across Superior to the Soo Locks. Normally we would go thru the Canadian Lock but it was closed. The Stewart J Cort was upbound from Detroit so we waited for her to clear the lock and we were next, downbound on the St. Mary's to Huron.

Our friends from Canada were supposed to be here to help as line handlers on our passage thru the Soo Lock. We transited the Poe on the South Channel. Passage thru the lock was free, we hired Soo Linehandling for the lock wall work.

On our passage to Huron we passed the Alogma Mariner, she was only making headway at 11 kts, we were at 19 kts. We were given the clear to pass her by her captain. We crossed over into Canadian waters passing the ship but they didn't come out and chase us down.

Our boat is now moored at South Bay in Green Bay, Wisconsin on Lake Michigan. We are departing for the Gulf of Mexico three days ahead of schedule on Sept 28.

It is very sad that our friends from Ontario were not able to take part in sea trials for our new Cat engines and transmissions, and see us off. We have been working toward this point for two years. They hope to be able to join us in the Caribbean in a year. Even if the Canadian lockdown ends this year, they would not be be able to cross Superior in November. Even if they could, Michigan gets pretty wild that time of year as well. It would not be wise to try to make it to Chicago to get on the river system with a 50 ft boat in ice fog and icing conditions. So their boat remain in our yard, they remain stranded in Ontario for another year.

I agree with Pelagic. Kia Roa is no more of a "danger" than we were running in Canadian waters to pass the Algoma Mariner. It seems to me the Canadians have gone overboard with their isolationism program, and our friends in Ontario agree with that assessment. While the US/Canada border closing was a mutual agreement between the US and Canada, it seems to me that just like the Bahamas people who can provide the proof and paperwork that they are not a COVID risk should trigger an exemption. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

So we have a forum advisor who thinks the Canadians should allow Kia Roa's passage through the NW channel, at the same time as they are jailing others who violate their borders.

To me, the laws should be enforced on everyone the same. It is unequal enforcement that really annoys people. Fine enforcement will never be fair, unless it were framed as a percentage of total wealth. As it is, people with big budgets do not suffer as much from quarantine violation fines as people with small budgets.

Ann

Hi Ann,
Perhaps you misunderstand my point.

He is exercising his right of passage in a waterway lane already being disputed as NOT Territorial, due to it's unique properties.

This 72 year old sailor departed from a US territory and as long as he does not attempt to interact with Canadian communities, he is NOT breaking any international convention laws.

The scores of Washington boaters abusing that same right of passage agreement, with no intention of a simple transit to Alaska, deserve punishment.

So you cannot equate the two

However, this legitimate transit is blown up by the Media and Petty Canadians who are frustrated by US pleasure boater arrogance.

It is easier and safer to attack an isolated Kiwi sailor, than to fight the US marine tourism industry, that provides Canadians with a huge influx of seasonal income....They are afraid of long term bad feelings.

To me, as an expat Canadian, that just smacks of cowardism.

I applaud the guy for seeing thru all this BS and getting on with his Life's journey

Where he eventually applies for entry is his problem and perhaps he has contemplated a Motessier type ending...... "The Long Way"

I wish him well!

[CruisingCouple]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Hi Ann,
However, this legitimate transit is blown up by the Media and Petty Canadians who are frustrated by US pleasure boater arrogance.

I agree. When we crossed into Canadian waters to make passage on the St. Mary's technically they could come out and chase us down. I don't know if they didn't see us or just ignored it based on our radio exchange with the Algoma Mariner. But it was the safest way around the ship since the ship was in the shipping channel and there was no room for safe passage on the US side. Nothing to do with arrogance, all to do with safety and right of passage since we had no intentions of setting foot on Canadian soil.

Unfortunately the Canadian MNR has been hassling US boaters walleye fishing on the St Mary's recently. In one incident a MNR officer told a US fisherman Canada "owns" 75% of the river and issued a ticket. The US boater called the US Coast Guard on the radio who showed up on the scene within minutes. The Canadian MNR officer was on the US side of the border, illegally. The border is not marked in that location but everybody knows where it is with their GPS. Since the USCG had to get involved with an international border situation there is a legal complaint being filed with the International Border Commission against Canadian authorities over-stepping their bounds.

International boundaries work two ways and Canadians do not have the right to claim territory is their's when it isn't. Incidents like this have never been a problem in the past. Mariners could cross that boundary and only had to contact authorities if they intended to dock on shore. IMO Canadians have gone over the edge and are being petty.

[jackdale]

Smith is now stopped or anchored.

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Hi Ann,
Perhaps you misunderstand my point.

He is exercising his right of passage in a waterway lane already being disputed as NOT Territorial, due to it's unique properties.

This 72 year old sailor departed from a US territory and as long as he does not attempt to interact with Canadian communities, he is NOT breaking any international convention laws.

The scores of Washington boaters abusing that same right of passage agreement, with no intention of a simple transit to Alaska, deserve punishment.

So you cannot equate the two

However, this legitimate transit is blown up by the Media and Petty Canadians who are frustrated by US pleasure boater arrogance.

It is easier and safer to attack an isolated Kiwi sailor, than to fight the US marine tourism industry, that provides Canadians with a huge influx of seasonal income....They are afraid of long term bad feelings.

To me, as an expat Canadian, that just smacks of cowardism.

I applaud the guy for seeing thru all this BS and getting on with his Life's journey

Where he eventually applies for entry is his problem and perhaps he has contemplated a Motessier type ending...... "The Long Way"

I wish him well!

Nice. You managed to call me petty and a coward in one go. How about we agree to disagree without the insults. And no, this type of "arrogance" is worse in the Arctic than it is in BC—the potential for trouble to become catastrophe is multiplied.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

He is exercising his right of passage in a waterway lane already being disputed as NOT Territorial, due to it's unique properties.

This 72 year old sailor departed from a US territory and as long as he does not attempt to interact with Canadian communities, he is NOT breaking any international convention laws.

He's an old guy with a bucket-list thing he wants to check off, and I'm pretty sympathetic to that...


I'm asking because I don't know; is it reasonable to assume that such a vessel and crew will be able to complete their innocent passage of the NWT completely at sea, with a low probablity of needing to use a Canadian port for assistance or supplies to complete the passage?



If it is, then it's a low risk re COVID-19 and he's simply "testing" some sovereignty issues about the NW passage. If it isn't, and it's more than likely he will need aid and a Canadian port along the way, or rescuing, then he's selfishly flouting COVID-19 precautions and restrictions.


I wish him well in either case, but it's hard to find the latter case praiseworthy.

[CruisingCouple]

This is going on on the St Mary's as well as the St Lawrence
https://www.timesunion.com/business/...r-15461159.php

This is the law:
Her Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate and House of Commons of Canada, enacts as follows:
1 This Act may be cited as the Conveyance Presentation and Reporting Requirements Modernization Act.
R.*S.*, c. 1 (2nd Supp.*)
Customs Act
2 Subsection 11(5) of the Customs Act is replaced by the following:
Entry and departure
(5) Subject to the regulations, subsections (1) and (3) do not apply to any of the following persons, unless an officer requires them to comply with those subsections:
(a) a person who enters Canadian waters, including the inland waters, or the airspace over Canada on board a conveyance directly from outside Canada and then leaves Canada on board the conveyance, as long as the person was continuously on board that conveyance while in Canada and
(i) in the case of a conveyance other than an aircraft, the person did not land in Canada and the conveyance did not anchor, moor or make contact with another conveyance while in Canadian waters, including the inland waters, or
(ii) in the case of an aircraft, the conveyance did not land while in Canada; and
(b) a person who leaves Canadian waters, including the inland waters, or the airspace over Canada on board a conveyance and then re-enters Canada on board the conveyance, as long as the person was continuously on board that conveyance while outside Canada and
(i) in the case of a conveyance other than an aircraft, the person did not land outside Canada and the conveyance did not anchor, moor or make contact with another conveyance while outside Canada, or
(ii) in the case of an aircraft, the conveyance did not land while outside Canada.

This is where we think Canada has become unreasonable. Efforts were made to reach a common sense solution since it obviously is not any sort of COVID risk, but Canada refuses. So then you get reciprocity. We learned on our passage thru the St. Marys that current US Coast Guard policy for Canadian mariners who enter US waters without prior approval is to be boarded, arrested and their vessel seized. And this includes the St. Claire and Erie.

We've been following this for months because we knew we would have to deal with the border situation when we leave on our cruise. We even considered trucking our boat to the Mississippi at Hudson to bypass it. Which would have been pretty expensive with a 72 ton yacht for permits, routing for bridges, safety vehicles and powerline raising. As it turned out it was not an issue and we're glad we took Great Lakes route instead. But this has never been a problem in the past, it's not a problem now until Canada turned it into one. Reciprocity is what you get when one side of a situation insists on being unreasonable.

[nwdiver]

Part of the issue with the NW Passage is the remoteness, the CG are not prepared to help anyone as no one is suppose to be transiting this year.....

Also it is Canadian Territory, try a fast and loose crossing of the NE Passage and see how long it takes the Russians to become the new owners of your boat.......

I think those breaking the rules should be banned from Canada for life, not asked to appear in court at some later date, which we know they will never attend......other countries ban people for 5 years to life all the time, just because they “think” you are suspicious.....

[deblen]

https://vocm.com/2020/08/26/governme...-on-august-31/




NFLD to allow out of province Canadian property owners in.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by deblen

https://vocm.com/2020/08/26/governme...-on-august-31/

NFLD to allow out of province Canadian property owners in.

Whoa Whooo! This means I'm one step closer to being able to visit my boat.

Of course this season is already lost to me. But maybe this means I can plan to get reunited with my home in 2021.



As for Smith and the NW Passage issue, the fact is there are long standing claims and counter-claims on the status of that waterway. Canada has staked a claim that it is an internal waterway, and as such means there is no right of innocent passage.

Despite the legal beagling here, the issue has been debated at the international level for decades, and likely will continue for some time. There are valid arguments on both sides, and no amount of Internet expertise here is going to discover anything the actual experts haven't. As someone who studied this in as a case study in university, I think the Canadian claim is weak, but I'm not expert, and neither is anyone else here.

So regardless of all the opinions here, it is the operating law of that land. Smith appeared to accept this by attempting to get approval for his passage at first. Once denied he decided to ignore the law and do it anyway.

THIS is the issue. The Covid question is now a sideline.

[Pete7]

Mike I hope you get the chance now to visit your yacht.

I just think the PS who is well known in sailing circles could have set a better example. After all millions of folk across the world have voluntarily agreed to curtail their social and work life to beat C19. Doing the NWP this year just to tick off a bucket list item isn't important and he would got more kudos for saying he was staying holed up somewhere.

Pete

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Mike I hope you get the chance now to visit your yacht.

I just think the PS who is well known in sailing circles could have set a better example. After all millions of folk across the world have voluntarily agreed to curtail their social and work life to beat C19. Doing the NWP this year just to tick off a bucket list item isn't important and he would got more kudos for saying he was staying holed up somewhere.

Pete

Thanks Pete, but we won't be seeing our little floating home till next Spring now. It's on the east coast and I'm heading for the west right now. It's three months too late and now 7000 km away. I won't go unless the yard tells me it fell off the jackstands .

As for Smith, I totally agree. His actions make it tougher for all cruisers who follow in his wake. Real guts would have had him call off his transit for this year -- as many others have done.