Canadian COVID-19 News

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Macblaze

Apropos of nothing I thought the "pop" or "burst" metaphor was pretty misleading. I initially thought that the bubble was gone rather than just contracting to smaller bubbles

Almost got excited for you for a minute there Mike...

Me too ... until I read the story .

Originally Posted by Macblaze

New restrictions coming to Alberta tomorrow. The "optimists" think there will be a lockdown but I really doubt it.

Got your toilet paper stocked up ?

[Tessellate]

So, the US-Canadian border is open, only to Canadians traveling by air. That's been very clear for months, but now with news of Canadian provinces applying to Hawaii's entry testing program it's becoming even more formalized. Does anyone know if Canadians can enter freely via marine entry too or is it just air that's allowed?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/can...d-19-1.5754763
https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/t...rrival-2896429

I find it amazing they're just going to continue letting this unspoken fact be the world's worst kept secret. I guess if they announced the double standard it would sound horrible. They blocked us from summer plans and continue to block Americans but Canadians can travel freely to the US for their winter vacations. (as long as they quarantine upon return, which we were willing to do just the same)

Border reciprocity is done and gone - it's a full-fledged 1-way asymmetrical border now.

[chris mac]

Originally Posted by Tessellate

So, the US-Canadian border is open, only to Canadians traveling by air. That's been very clear for months, but now with news of Canadian provinces applying to Hawaii's entry testing program it's becoming even more formalized. Does anyone know if Canadians can enter freely via marine entry too or is it just air that's allowed?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/can...d-19-1.5754763
https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/t...rrival-2896429

I find it amazing they're just going to continue letting this unspoken fact be the world's worst kept secret. I guess if they announced the double standard it would sound horrible. They blocked us from summer plans and continue to block Americans but Canadians can travel freely to the US for their winter vacations. (as long as they quarantine upon return, which we were willing to do just the same)

Border reciprocity is done and gone - it's a full-fledged 1-way asymmetrical border now.

What secret? And what double standard?
One country set restrictions on entering their borders.
Another country set looser restrictions on entering their country.
Each country sets their own rules. As it's always been.

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Tessellate

Border reciprocity is done and gone - it's a full-fledged 1-way asymmetrical border now.

As you say, it's been that way from the start. I read a US-centric report that Washington had announced they were going to keep the border closed and that Canada had concurred and I smirked to myself. The US hasn't been interested in a closed border since the first few weeks. It's the Canadian Government that's pushing that agenda. (which frankly I agree with).

But pushing that interpretation I would assume that sailing into Hawaii wouldn't be looked at too askew. The car borders are closed because you can't logically have one open and not the other right beside it where as arriving by air you really aren't crossing the "same" border."

But that's just my interpretation of the status quo... Trying sailing to Friday Harbour and see where that gets ya...

[Tessellate]

Originally Posted by chris mac

What secret? And what double standard?
One country set restrictions on entering their borders.
Another country set looser restrictions on entering their country.
Each country sets their own rules. As it's always been.

Obviously it's not truly a secret, that was in reference to how each month headlines say the land border closure is extended, and many people not closely following this think that means the border is closed. When in fact it isn't (and is more open in one direction than the other). The air entry for Canadians was really not very widely known until recently.

I don't agree that the US having laxer restrictions means the Canadian govt is absolved of reconciling these inconsistencies. The workarounds are reaching proportions that would be comical if they weren't also sad (like the news of Canadians shipping their cars to the US so they can fly to Florida, Arizona etc, while still having their car which can't be driven across).

It's naive to say that Canada isn't facilitating the one-sided flow. With the Hawaii flight program the province and Canadian airlines are actively facilitating the non-reciprocal travel arrangement (and in fact at some cost to the Hawaiian govt which pays for administration of the testing program supervision).

So mainly I was wondering why there doesn't seem to be interest in resolving the one-sideness of the arrangement through the many options that are available (pre-entry testing, etc) - instead the Alberta-Hawaii program is doubling down on it. Alberta has 3.5 times Hawaii's covid rate per capita, and 7 provinces have more covid-per-capita than Hawaii currently [Source].

Previously the logic was that the US had more covid than Canada. But now with provinces embracing a pre-travel testing program from a high Covid region to a low Covid region they're basically saying they're okay with the idea that pre-travel testing adequately protects the vulnerable population (an idea I agree with if it's run well), but not okay with that concept applied in the reverse direction.

[Mike OReilly]

As others have said, this one-way flow seems to have existed from the get-go. Despite the apparent mutual agreement to close the border to non-essential travel, the US side has continued to allow entry via air.

I've never seen an answer as to why this is the case. Attempts by journalist to get an answer has resulted in no clear explanation. Maybe the calculus is that Canadians are less risky (from a Covid-19 perspective) than the American population anyway, so letting us in poses no problem. But if that were the case, why not keep the land border open as well?

I wish the US would live up to the agreement, but it's up to them -- not Canada. As for private companies like airlines seeking to benefit this situation, well... you can hardly blame them. Good free market capitalism at work there.

There are now companies that will fly Canadians over the border, and then transport their vehicles commercially. I read about one company that is helicoptering Canadians from Hamilton to Buffalo, and then commercially trucking their vehicles. The company delivers the vehicle to the waiting Canadians, all for a nice fee.

Makes no sense that the Americans allow this .

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

... There are now companies that will fly Canadians over the border, and then transport their vehicles commercially. I read about one company that is helicoptering Canadians from Hamilton to Buffalo, and then commercially trucking their vehicles. The company delivers the vehicle to the waiting Canadians, all for a nice fee.
Makes no sense that the Americans allow this .

Transport KMC flies snowbirds on a chartered plane from an airport, just outside Montrea,l to nearby Plattsburgh, N.Y. KMC employees also drive the snowbirds' vehicles to the Plattsburgh airport so, after landing, the passengers can continue their journey down south.

Customers pay $500 per seat on the plane, and $1,000 for the vehicle transport.

KMC flies to Plattsburgh twice each weekday. The nine-seater plane is always full.

[Tessellate]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Makes no sense that the Americans allow this .

I agree with your points, however it's not just the US that's allowing it, it's the Canadians as well - saying it's just capitalism for Canadian companies to benefit from US permissiveness ignores the fact that the CA govt could restrict what services the airlines/transport allow - just as US states and other places have restricted restaurants and other businesses.

I think they're counting on the 14-day quarantine to protect them from the returning Florida, Arizona, Mexico vacationers but it will be interesting to see if that actually works - quarantine rules don't work so well when the people in charge of enforcing it get overwhelmed by a large increase in quarantine counts. I'm sure most people will follow the rules, but there's always bound to be some issues. As the border restrictions become more porous it raises the question of whether they're actually doing anything at all.

Anyway, interesting news (and this thread is about Canadian covid-19 news within the covid containment subforum, so that's why I thought it relevant).

[Eder]

There's no Canadian airline currently flying to Hawaii, they'll sell you a ticket but they never go...having said that I'm flying out Air Canada to LAX where I jump on United for the leg to Honolulu.

Coming back if Covid is still a thing I'll fly into Calgary...2 day quarantine when if I test negative I'm free as a bird.


btw my boat is in Hawaii so most likely I will choose to sail it home in May.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Well, I got through 1/2 and he'd already lied a few times, so I know it's not worth any more time.

Thanks for sharing the polemic though. Maybe keep this kind of stuff for the other Covid threads. We're trying to keep this one useful.

He’s Canadian.

This is the Canadian thread.

Deal with it.

[TrentePieds]

Jason Flare:

You will appreciate my pointing out to you that we Canadians HAVE "dealt with it" :-)

The RCPSC has distanced itself from Dr. Hodkinson as stated below (clip and paste by me).

You, as a non-Canadian, cannot be expected to be attuned to the subtlety of this, but to many a Canadian, Dr. Hodkinson's accent and comportment marks him as a "Professional Englishman in the Colonies". Please be assured that Canada will afford him his freedom to be a dissenter. Please be assured also that we Canadians are exercising our freedom to dismiss his opinions.

The Chief Public Health Officer of Canada referred to is Dr. Theresa Tam, q.v. Dr. Tam is an infectious diseases expert.

All the best.

TrentePieds
----------------------------------------------------------------

UPDATED: Clarification on statements made regarding COVID-19 by Dr. Roger Hodkinson
Royal College Staff
November 20, 2020 | Author: Royal College Staff
1 MIN READ
On November 19, 2020 the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada (Royal College) was made aware of statements regarding COVID-19 by a Royal College Fellow, Dr. Rodger Hodkinson. Although Dr. Hodkinson has never made the claim, in some online references, Dr. Hodkinson is being incorrectly identified as a chair/past-chair of the Royal College.

We would like to clarify that Dr. Hodkinson is not nor has ever held the position of chairman of the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada.

We can confirm that Dr. Roger Hodkinson was certified by the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada as a general pathologist in 1976.

The Royal College believes COVID-19 presents a serious threat to the health of Canadians. The Royal College strongly supports all public health advice given by the Chief Public Health Officer of Canada, including recommendations to practise physical distancing and to wear masks to help prevent COVID-19 transmission. We are very appreciative of the dedication and commitment of our Royal College Fellows, residents and all front-line health care workers in the fight against COVID-19.
-----------------------------------------------------

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Tessellate

I agree with your points, however it's not just the US that's allowing it, it's the Canadians as well.

The thing is, neither Canada nor the USA controls those who leaves our countries. This is unlike many other countries which demand that one clear both in, and out. We don't do that. So we don't have the infrastructure, nor the history, to make this happen easily.

The only time I've heard of Canada attempting to control people leaving our country was around ISIS recruitment. Some very few Canadians were stopped from traveling to the former caliphate. But this was done using significant police and counter-terrorism efforts. I don't think we're quite there yet with the Covid-19 pandemic.

Originally Posted by Tessellate

I think they're counting on the 14-day quarantine to protect them from the returning Florida, Arizona, Mexico vacationers but it will be interesting to see if that actually works - quarantine rules don't work so well when the people in charge of enforcing it get overwhelmed by a large increase in quarantine counts. I'm sure most people will follow the rules, but there's always bound to be some issues. As the border restrictions become more porous it raises the question of whether they're actually doing anything at all.

I completely agree. The people leaving are doing so knowing full well they are not supposed to travel. And are counting on the fact that, as citizens, they can't be barred from coming back in. But even with the 14-day quarantine, they are going to put others at a heightened risk.

That said, there is a component of the snowbird community which really has no choice but to head south for the winter. Much like the full-time cruiser community, there is a small, but significant number of people who have summer homes up here and winter homes in the southern states, or even beyond. Their Canadian homes might be trailers, or RVs, or just non-insulated houses that are unlivable in the winter. So these people have no choice but to go south.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

He’s Canadian.

This is the Canadian thread.

Deal with it.

Quackery is not confined to any one nationality. Just because he's Canadian, does not make him worth listening to.

TrentePieds' response is the right one.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Quackery is not confined to any one nationality.

Agree.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

... That said, there is a component of the snowbird community which really has no choice but to head south for the winter. Much like the full-time cruiser community, there is a small, but significant number of people who have summer homes up here and winter homes in the southern states, or even beyond. Their Canadian homes might be trailers, or RVs, or just non-insulated houses that are unlivable in the winter. So these people have no [easy] choice but to go south.

As is mostly usual, I agree with your observations, however I felt moved to one slight modification to your final statement.