Covid vaccination status for CF members

[Thumbs Up]

Wouldn't vaccinated people who have Covid be more likely to spread it, since they are the ones not required to take the precautions? The unvaccinated also would be more likely to be using an ivermectin based prophylaxis protocol. (85% effective)
While we are talking logic; these breakthrough cases? They say the numbers are expected but they aren't saying what percent (of the fully vaccinated are being tested). Since the initial reports of the breakthrough cases, the numbers haven't changed much which to my logic tells me the true numbers are being suppressed.
Furthermore, CDC says that the risk of anaphylaxis is 100 times lower than the actual risk.

Anaphylaxis after COVID-19 vaccination is rare and occurred in approximately 2 to 5 people per million vaccinated in the United States based on events reported to VAERS.https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...se-events.html

This analysis confirms it:

severe reactions consistent with anaphylaxis occurred at a rate of 2.47 per 10 000 vaccinationshttps://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2777417

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You've shown repeatedly that you don't have a good understanding of viral immunity, or the differences between "natural" immunity and that from vaccination. So your prediction can safely be ignored.

One of the other problems with the vaccination rollout and uptake in this information age are the loud noises from a very small number of anti-vax quacks, amplified by those using this as just another political wedge issue, and willingly parroted by the ignorant. But maybe if enough of you keep hard at it, I suppose it could be enough to make your predictions come true.

(you of course WILL get vaccinated eventually, unless you relish the idea of owning a 40 ft daysailor )

LOL a Typical response - Derogatory, put the person down, try to discredit them, sling dirt if you can't do anything else - Maybe I was wrong about you working in a marketing department, maybe an ex low level burnt out and jaded politician?



Please enlighten me with actual links and facts and not your normal abusive comments with no backed up evidence of how they are going to vaccinate the whole planet every year at least twice a year?


Really you do not understand the world around you and are living in your own little Western Bubble.



Don't bother responding unless, as asked, with ACTUAL Links and FACTS.


FYI When my State Government Categorically states the vaccine as POISON, I don't think I will be taking a vaccine. (See earlier post for link)

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Greg K

Unvaccinated people who are asymptomatic or who have only a mild form of the disease (which by far is the majority of cases), obviously have a sufficiently robust immune system to end up with the same outcomes you have noted above.

You have no basis for making that claim.

Asymptomatic is a relative term. The person who has asymptomatic or presymptomatic COVID might not yet be a geyser of snot, or wheezing like an asthmatic, but they are still the COVID's b1tch, cells are being invaded and viruses replicated. The person is infected but not debilitatated by symptoms. If that wasn't the case, there'd be no measurable virus or antibodies; they wouldn't test positive.

If the same person had been vaccinated, then they'd be less infected (or not infected) by the same exposure. Therefore less of a viral factory. Therefore less of an infection risk to others. I don't know why this isn't obvious.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

Wouldn't vaccinated people who have Covid be more likely to spread it, since they are the ones not required to take the precautions?

Based just on CF comments, I'd say the vaccinated are more likely to have followed COVID precautions, and can be expected to keep following them, til it's agreed that the precautions are no longer necessary.

The unvaccinated also would be more likely to be using an ivermectin based prophylaxis protocol. (85% effective)

India's getting creamed right now by COVID. They're desperate for any possibility of help. Of any country most likely to embrace a low cost effective treatment or prophylaxis, India would be it. Yet... they're being creamed, and I haven't read one line about how ivermectin is saving lives or providing protection in India right now. Could this possibly be because ivermectin doesn't really work on COVID near as well as you've asserted?

[Thumbs Up]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Based just on CF comments, I'd say the vaccinated are more likely to have followed COVID precautions, and can be expected to keep following them, til it's agreed that the precautions are no longer necessary.
India's getting creamed right now by COVID. They're desperate for any possibility of help. Of any country most likely to embrace a low cost effective treatment or prophylaxis, India would be it. Yet... they're being creamed, and I haven't read one line about how ivermectin is saving lives or providing protection in India right now. Could this possibly be because ivermectin doesn't really work on COVID near as well as you've asserted?

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
April 29, 2021

CONTACT:
Press@FLCCC.net

WASHINGTON, D.C. – The Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance (FLCCC), a group of highly published, world-renowned critical care physicians and scholars, today praised the recent updated guidance from the All India Institute of Medical Science (AIIMS) to include ivermectin in its guidelines for the treatment of COVID-19.

As COVID-19 cases in India continue to increase at an alarming rate this guidance is a welcome development for the country’s efforts to treat those in need. We encourage all medical authorities, hospitals, physicians and medical professionals in India to follow the latest guidance from AIIMS.

“We are grateful that the AIIMS has followed the science on ivermectin in creating the new guidelines,” said Pierre Kory, M.P.A., MD, president and chief medical officer of the FLCCC. “I expect that if implemented, we will begin to see a decline in cases as we have seen in other regions when there is widespread use of ivermectin.”https://covid19criticalcare.com/vide...dical-science/

The problem is that India, like most countries, has been following the advice recommended by the recognized authorities (NIH, CDC, WHO, and EMA) for how to prevent and treat COVID. This advice is based on evidence-based medicine (EBM) which takes a relatively long time to discover and rigorously validate effective treatments, especially for generic low-cost repurposed drugs that are off-patent...........................Short of mass vaccination, the next best scalable way to prevent people from getting COVID is ivermectin. There are 14 clinical trials that support this recommendation. Of course, if you find a drug with more trials and a bigger minimum effect size and better anecdotal data, you should use that drug instead.https://trialsitenews.com/how-india-...es-and-deaths/

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

“We are grateful that the AIIMS has followed the science on ivermectin in creating the new guidelines,” said Pierre Kory, M.P.A., MD, president and chief medical officer of the FLCCC. “I expect that if implemented, we will begin to see a decline in cases as we have seen in other regions when there is widespread use of ivermectin.”

We will indeed see how well it works, won't we? A trial with 1.2 billion participants...

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You have no basis for making that claim.

Asymptomatic is a relative term. The person who has asymptomatic or presymptomatic COVID might not yet be a geyser of snot, or wheezing like an asthmatic, but they are still the COVID's b1tch, cells are being invaded and viruses replicated. The person is infected but not debilitatated by symptoms. If that wasn't the case, there'd be no measurable virus or antibodies; they wouldn't test positive.

If the same person had been vaccinated, then they'd be less infected (or not infected) by the same exposure. Therefore less of a viral factory. Therefore less of an infection risk to others. I don't know why this isn't obvious.

Because it isn't.

The immune response is what counts. The body may had some history from other corona viruses from the past and produce a proper response without a "vaccination".

On the other hand a vaccination is no guarantee the organism would learn and provide a proper response to the real virus or mutants. It may or may not curb it, it may even freak out and make things worse.

A mRNA or vector virus "vaccine" is still experimental - despite the big field test now, and you never know what the long term damages might be to the genetic code, it is a targeted assault on our cells.

Also it depends on the viral load the organism was exposed to, it may be low, so the immune system has enough time to respond and built up immunity without severe symptoms.

The so called vaccines just provoke a infection to train the immune system, same is achieved after recovering from a real infection, but with a much broader protection.

What you seem to refuse to understand is - the so called vaccines do nothing to the virus at all, they only mock it up. It is always the human immune system that fights the infection, and it does not matter how it learned about it. A real encounter trains the immune system to all aspects of the disease, the spike proteines are only a very narrow marker.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

On the other hand a vaccination is no guarantee the organism would learn and provide a proper response to the real virus or mutants. It may or may not curb it, it may even freak out and make things worse.

Absolutely untrue. Which is why you have no link to back this, of course. In fact, getting infected with COVID produces different levels of immunity from strong to "barely", and they have been showing different rates of decline. Whereas vaccine, with a consistent dose produces a consistently strong immunity. With the bonus that you don't get sick from COVID and all the risk that entails.

A mRNA or vector virus vaccine is still experimental - despite the big field test now, and you never know what the long term damages might be.

Fever dreams. The mRNA vaccine is not messing with your DNA. It's a brilliant approach to generating immunity, is going to prove itself safer, and will be used much more often in the future.

The so called vaccines just provoke a infection to train the immune system, same is achieved after recovering from a real infection, but with a much broader protection.

You get broader response from vaccination. If you get sick with COVID Classic, there's no guarantee you will have strong protection from the recent variants. The main vaccines, with the dependably strong immunity they generate, have shown to also work reasonably well against current variants.


THANK YOU for so clearly demonstrating that you have a poor grasp of generating immunity to COVID.

[Thumbs Up]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Absolutely untrue. Which is why you have no link to back this, of course. In fact, getting infected with COVID produces different levels of immunity from strong to "barely", and they have been showing different rates of decline. Whereas vaccine, with a consistent dose produces a consistently strong immunity. With the bonus that you don't get sick from COVID and all the risk that entails.

Fever dreams. The mRNA vaccine is not messing with your DNA. It's a brilliant approach to generating immunity, is going to prove itself safer, and will be used much more often in the future.


You get broader response from vaccination. If you get sick with COVID Classic, there's no guarantee you will have strong protection from the recent variants. The main vaccines, with the dependably strong immunity they generate, have shown to also work reasonably well against current variants.


THANK YOU for so clearly demonstrating that you have a poor grasp of generating immunity to COVID.

Working late tonight LE, end of the month I see. So you have a quota?

[CatNewBee]

This shows your total ignorance to science and just paroting the vaccination propaganda. An immune system that knows cars will recognise most cars, it sees 4 wheels, engine, a stearing wheel, suspensions, brakes.

It will recognise an electric car as mutation of a diesel, because most other building blocks are the same, it will also see a truck as a car despite it is bigger and has more wheels, because many parts are similar and will trigger a response, even a motorcycle will be attacked because of some known parts.

A Vaccine trained immune system, based on a Spike protein lets say a carburator, will recognize all cars with a gas engine, but not a diesel or electric car.

Many people don't get sick or are asymptomatic, because they had been infected by other corona viruses (as a cold) in the past, even as child. Also scientists recently published, that teachers in preschools and kindergartens are more often asymptomatic and less severe ill, because they are often exposed to children with a cold that triggers and trains their immune system.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

...because US employers like desperate low-wage immigrant labour. It keeps all low-skilled wages low. Circular problem.

If people could raise a family on one low-wage job in the 50's, but two low-wage parents today can't... there's a wage problem.
Seriously? Why haven't you (or the plan managers) invested it?You're not wrong... but a global pandemic isn't the time to be worried about incurring debt. I'm not able to prove this myself, but it's my understanding that the speed and extent of the economic responses to COVID and related closures wll turn out to be cheaper overall than just letting it rip. With the desirable side effect of preventing multiple millions more deaths and disabilities.

The world is now smaller and more interconnected. The major economies are like a ring full of naked wrestlers each holding tight to another wrestler's junk. Horrible visual, I know.

If we all owe each other...

Yeah, illegal immigrants who consider it to be a better deal to come to the US and work for what we consider low wages drive down what US citizens might otherwise be able to command to do that same job. But thats one good reason why mass illegal immigration needs to end so there’s a more level playing field for those doing these jobs. Not much of an argument for the US having substandard wages though, but a good argument that the wages in the countries where these people come from are substandard.

In the 50’s it was considered normal to live in a much smaller house than we now consider acceptable. I grew up in a middle class family and we ate out at a restaurant once or twice a year, and ate at Macdonald’s just once, during our annual Christmas shopping evening. We made our own bread because “boughten” bread was considered an expensive extravagance. Hand me down clothes were the norm. My parents shared a car. We shared a party telephone line with the whole neighborhood. Nobody expected to go on vacation farther than they could drive in a day or two, certainly not to Europe or tropical islands. And in the town where we lived (and I still do) we were considered slightly above average because my father was an executive with New England Telephone, a part of AT&T. Now, those living conditions would be considered unacceptable for even those below the poverty level. So when you make a statement about the inability of people to survive on a single income now versus in the 1950’s you’re not comparing apples to apples. I know people with no education and barely surviving, but they go to Dunkin’ Donuts 5 days a week because “it takes too long to make coffee at home.” When i was growing up, I still remember the one time I went to Dunkin Donuts and had a hot chocolate, what a treat! Again, minimum wage jobs are not supposed to be something you support a family on over the long term.

My retirement plan is a defined benefit plan so I have no ability to control the money that the checks they send to me are drawn against. The amount is based on my highest income and length of service and there is no cost of living adjustment so if inflation goes up, my spending power goes down. Lots of retirees have similar plans they are depending on and that’s why high inflation, though a good deal for those paying off debts, would decrease the spending power of millions of retired people on fixed incomes. In my case I’ve always lived below my means and saved so am not entirely dependent on this retirement but many are not so fortunate.

We’re NOT talking about an alternative to “letting it rip” and most of this money will contribute nothing to do with ridding us of Covid or saving lives. IF this money were primarily being used to ease the pain of the pandemic I’d agree with you that now is no time to worry about debt, but most of this increased debt will do nothing towards ridding us of Covid or even easing the financial pain of the pandemic.

You’re right that your naked wrestler analogy is particularly disturbing, and even worse, it’s irrelevant when discussing paying off debt or at least paying the interest on that debt. You seem determined to tap dance around the reality that somebody in the future is actually going to have to pay for this spending we are about to indulge ourselves in. The reality is that those who hold this debt expect to be paid back with interest. Every dollar spent on paying off debts and interest is a dollar that can’t be spent on dealing with current infrastructure needs or to fight current pandemics or anything else that will be needed. In the US we’re paying $375 billion every year to cover the debt incurred by past borrowing. That’s over $1000 for every man, woman, and child in the US just to cover the interest on this debt, and that’s with historically low interest rates. If interest rates go up, so will the amount we have to pay on any new borrowing. I understand it’s a seductive idea to spend money you don’t currently have, but the reality is that the pain of paying it back will fall to future taxpayers who will have to forgo spending their earnings on themselves in order to pay the interest on money we borrow now. As much as hour seem to want there to be one, there’s no free lunch!

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

That's pretty meaningless. Just because some other places are even worse in terms of wages vs cost of living and opportunities doesn't mean that we don't have a problem.

So you agree that what you claim is a wages and cost of living problem in the US is less of a problem than most other places have with these issues. That seems pretty meaningful to me.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Whereas vaccine, with a consistent dose produces a consistently strong immunity.

THANK YOU for so clearly demonstrating that you have a poor grasp of generating immunity to COVID.

LOL - That was an outstandingly poor article - where are the scientific peer reviewed papers? - No wonder you don't understand what is going on if you are using such sources for your information and you have the tenacity to accuse others of having a poor grasp


FYI Still waiting for your proof from an earlier post that you seem to have conveniently ignored as you obviously can not provide - Best in future to not denigrate people when you can't back it up.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by danstanford

... If one expects to be able to borrow tomorrow at reasonable costs all the creditors will need to be paid back.

Probably, with borrowed money.

[GordMay]

Some interesting & informative articles, on the subject of ivermectin [see Thumbs Up #1550]:

“What's Behind the Ivermectin-for-COVID Buzz?”
➥ https://www.medpagetoday.com/infecti.../covid19/90552

“Frontiers Removes Controversial Ivermectin Paper Pre-Publication”
A review article containing contested claims about the tropical medicine drug as a COVID-19 treatment was listed as “provisionally accepted” on the journal’s website before being removed this week.
➥ https://www.the-scientist.com/news-o...lication-68505

“COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines: Ivermectin” ~ NIH [Updated: February 11, 2021]
“There are insufficient data for the COVID-19 Treatment Guidelines Panel (the Panel) to recommend either for or against the use of ivermectin for the treatment of COVID-19. Results from adequately powered, well-designed, and well-conducted clinical trials are needed to provide more specific, evidence-based guidance on the role of ivermectin in the treatment of COVID-19.”
➥ https://www.covid19treatmentguidelin...py/ivermectin/

“People are poisoning themselves trying to treat or prevent COVID-19 with a horse de-worming drug”
➥ https://www.businessinsider.com/peop...ovid-19-2021-2

“Review of the Emerging Evidence Demonstrating the Efficacy of Ivermectin in the Prophylaxis and Treatment of COVID-19" ~ by Pierre Kory et al
➥ https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-c...f-COVID-19.pdf

“Clinical and Scientific Rationale for the “MATHþ” Hospital Treatment Protocol for COVID-19" ~ by Pierre Kory et al
➥ https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-c...ne-Dec2020.pdf