Covid vaccination status for CF members

[Belezar]

One nice thing about this thread is that it has showed who the nut jobs are. I didn’t have an ignore list before. Now it has quite a few names. I agree with one of the first posts that nothing in this thread will change anyone’s minds. True dat. But it has attracted the kooks like a bear to honey.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Pretty simplistic to blame the lawyers and defend the pharm companies. Maybe part of the issue is treating their product like a consumer fad to hype as much as possible.
" From 2014 through 2016, various publications—from the Washington Post to Vox to MedCity News—published an eye-opening chart showing that nine of the top 10 large pharmaceutical companies (all but Roche) spent more on marketing than research and development (R&D). "

It's not actually "simplistic" to blame lawyers (and here I speak as a lawyer).


Tort liability is not the only reason for differential pricing, and not all of the reasons for this pricing are honorable, but tort liability is a BIG part of it, and a BIG part of the woes of our health care system (which is altogether a disgrace).


One reason we don't see differential pricing for covid vaccines is that part of the OWS deal was that pharma companies are shielded from products liability through the "vaccine court" established by the Vaccine Act and other legislation. See: https://www.law360.com/articles/1279...y-from-trials; https://www.insurancejournal.com/new.../14/579150.htm.



We are paying less than $4 per dose of AZ (including the money AZ received for R&D and trials), about that same as what the EU pays. We are paying less than what the EU pays for Pfizer and Moderna.



The evil big pharma company Astra Zeneca is providing the AZ vaccine to developing countries at cost, by the way.


As to marketing costs -- I guess people who have never been involved in managing a business, will be surprised that all big companies spend a lot on marketing. Marketing is fundamental to business in a market economy. This is neither inherently good nor inherently evil; it's just the reality of business. Can be evil of course -- look at the opioid crisis. But not always.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I don't think immunity matters.. the goal is to vaccinate any and all they can..
No vaccine, no rights..
No test for immunity and a pass if immune..

Think about what you're asking for here...It's much cheaper, easier and more reliable to vaccinate someone in one or two shots, than to be testing someone every time they travel, or seek admittance to a public venue or event.

[GordMay]

Maggie & I just got confirmation for our first & second vaccinations.
Gord: April 6 - Maggie April 12.
Second doses July/Aug.

[Lake-Effect]

As someone frequently accused here of being a socialist (not entirely true), my 2 cents on the pharma companies producing the vaccines is... good job folks. It IS pretty amazing how that industry has stepped up, and there will be enough good vaccines for the world, AND vaccine science has been moved forward significantly. This is great.

Let's also observe that the effort was spurred and aided by public (government) input, like OWS and other contributions that made money available up front and/or significant guaranteed purchases which reduced the financial risks to the companies, and by some intelligent revision of the approval processes - eg doing development, testing and manufacturing in parallel, rather than doing one step at a time.

Finally, let's not forget that just about everywhere, the vaccines are ordered, paid-for, distributed and administered by (or on behalf of) the government, without cost to users.

This is maybe the best current example of how healthcare is most efficient, thorough and fair when it is an intelligent partnership of government and industry. The byzantine complexity and price-runup caused by private insurance regimes (as described earlier) should drive this point home.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Some good news, AstraZeneca is suspended for people below 60 in Germany, because of the risks of a Thrombosis with death possibility.

Only 60 to 70yo shall get it to the will of Merkel, however the younger brave can still get the shot if they want it.

https://www.n-tv.de/22461968

Seems 60..70 is an age not important for the next election?

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Think about what you're asking for here...It's much cheaper, easier and more reliable to vaccinate someone in one or two shots, than to be testing someone every time they travel, or seek admittance to a public venue or event.

Roll your eyes all you want.. I was not asking for anything I was making a statement..
Enough with trying to spin everything.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Of course governments are involved in enforcing all kinds of laws but thats not what is commonly considered to be intervention. Everybody knows the law in advance and its the governments job to make sure the law is not violated.

Im not arguing that big pharma companies are virtuous or that the way drugs are marketed around the world couldn’t be improved upon, just that without an adequate financial incentive many of the life prolonging drugs we all now take for granted wouldn’t exist and lots of yours and my neighbors (maybe even you or I) would now be dead as a result. I guess its natural to want to purchase the objects we desire for less money so we can keep more of our hard earned dollars in our own pockets, especially when we see it selling for less elsewhere. I used to fly into Mumbai so am familiar with really cheap drug prices, and just down the street you could buy a $17 dvd of the latest movie for $1. But the hard truth is that if those drugs were priced at the Mumbai level all around the world and the big pharma companies knew thats how it would be in advance, the drug wouldn’t even exist and the comfort it provides to ill people wouldn’t be available to them at ANY price. The same is true for the movie. So, as imperfect and unfair as capitalism may sometimes seem, its the only system that has a built in motivation that gets people to push themselves to come up with the better mousetrap. Call it greed if you wish, but it works reliably and we all benefit from it.

If you really think big pharma companies are making “too much” profit, then it sounds to me like you’ve just identified a great investment opportunity for yourself. If you feel strongly about this, buy some of their stock which will put yourself in a position where you can benefit from their so called greed, and then use your financial gains to purchase the ‘overpriced’ drugs you or your loved ones need, or if you dont want to personally profit from them, donate that money to provide drugs for those who cant afford to buy them. Also, you should always remember that you are free to protest their high prices by refusing to purchase their products. No one is forcing you to support their greed. Of course that might mean you have to get accustomed to living with a difficult medical condition or it might mean you don’t live as long, but ultimately its your choice whether you buy these ‘overpriced’ drugs or not. Nobody is forcing any of us to participate in this system you think is so unfair. That doesnt mean there arent abuses that should be corrected or reforms that should occur, but if capitalism is removed from the drug developing process, we will all miss out on future medical advances that will either be delayed or never happen.

Or I vote for politicians that are trying to work to change the system. You can take the extreme and say a drug is cheap in Mumbai and therefore would never have gotten developed, but it is just an extreme example. I'm talking about drugs that are cheap, just 1/10 of the US price in countries like Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Indonesia and Malaysia. A 30 day supply in the US is $450-500. The other mentioned countries $50-70. The drug companies are fine selling to these countries and it adds nicely to their bottom line.

No country in the world outside of the US is bombarded with high cost TV ads for prescription drugs. Gotta tell your doctor you need a script for the purple pill. It is just an example of extreme waste in the US system. Higher per captia costs per person with no better and often worse outcomes. Why would ypu want to support a system that is working to bankrupt the country?

High liability costs? Sure, and that is due to the US system and should change. But the cost of medical liability is in the single digit percent of US medical spending. It doesn't explain much of the high costs,

[GoinSumWare]

I figure by the time all of those who are lining up for the vaccine get it I wont have to bother, because if they are "protected" (the jury on that long term is still out, and the variants add another variable) I am no threat to them, and I am not worried for myself.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I was not asking for anything I was making a statement..
Enough with trying to spin everything.

What spin? You observed/stated/complained/whatever that there wasn't going to be widespread tests for immunity (as an alternative for proof of vaccine), and I was pointing out the sheer inefficiency of such a step. Surely you can see that jabbing someone once or twice in the arm is less effort than taking a sample, sending it to a lab for analysis, reporting the result. And, as far as I know, the antibody test accuracy is not yet as accurate as the vaccine is at conferring immunity.

[davil]

[QUOTE=GoinSumWare;3378839]I figure by the time all of those who are lining up for the vaccine get it I wont have to bother, because if they are "protected" (the jury on that long term is still out, and the variants add another variable I am no threat to them, and I am not worried for myself.
=====================================
sort of agree, I do not worry about you.

as stated on an earlier post

Basically, there are two groups
Group A (my group)
Vaccinated, use face masks, respect safe distance etc.
Group B
Non vaccinated

Group A continues to increase in numbers. (as per millions of people vaccinated)

Group B continues to decrease in numbers.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

What spin? You observed/stated/complained/whatever that there wasn't going to be widespread tests for immunity (as an alternative for proof of vaccine), and I was pointing out the sheer inefficiency of such a step. Surely you can see that jabbing someone once or twice in the arm is less effort than taking a sample, sending it to a lab for analysis, reporting the result. And, as far as I know, the antibody test accuracy is not yet as accurate as the vaccine is at conferring immunity.

I stated what direction the policy appeared to be going in in the UK and time has proved that right though the government is apparently trying to side step blame by laying the onus on entertainment venues like pubs and theaters..

Originally Posted by boatman61.
I don't think immunity matters.. the goal is to vaccinate any and all they can..
No vaccine, no rights..
No test for immunity and a pass if immune..

It was not a complaint, winge or whatever you try to interpret it as, just a basic fact as I saw it.
But yes.. there is no effort to check for immunity just shove the joy juice into you whether one needs it or not.
As for the expense..
I'll happily pay the €25 for a blood test to check my system before deciding on a jab or not..
Also.. They can analyse immunity in the system after the vaccine but they can't after recovery from infection..???
Your having a laugh or a sucker for the spiel..

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Maggie & I just got confirmation for our first & second vaccinations.
Gord: April 6 - Maggie April 12.
Second doses July/Aug.

Congratulations!! [emoji322][emoji3060]

[CatNewBee]

Interesting fact, natives and migrants in the Caribbean islands are very reluctant to get the jab, so vaccination facilities vaccine cruisers and tourists almost instantly without any waiting, just to secure the vaccine supply from the continent is not stopped from comming to the islands and the centers can fulfill their vaccination goals.

Seems only some few developed countries with high media usage could scare their citizens enough to make them crave for the shot and make a big part of the population get it.

Some more shaming just comming up in Germany, blaming queue-jumpers and hustlers getting their shot earlier has caused thousends of deaths of the vulnerable age groups in ITALY, that could not get the jab quick enough. Such statements heat up the discussion and also the urge to get the jab or die - but also to subscribe fir the shot.

Very interesting is a statistical correlation of holidays and traditional vacations that leads to a huge jump of new cases and deaths, resulting in hard lockdowns and travel bans. Sounds logic? Yes, if this would occure after that vacations and holidays - but it is in reality before them - so people are imprisoned BEFORE they have a chance to have some gatherings based on "incidences" and "increased mortality" figures reported in the media.

Smells like a hoax to me. Especially christian family holidays like Christmas and Easter are hard affected. It is a trend to push back against religion, and Covid is a great instrument for this. I am really curious if there will be hard lockdowns for Ramadan soon too, but I doubt it - this communities are more fanatic about religion than Covid and authorities fear to mess with them.

Easter is traditionally also a time for marches and demonstrations against the policies and for freedom and peace. A lockdown and scare mongering is a very welcome event to blame and shame the opposition too.

I am curious if any official reporting will be done in the next days about such gatherings - I am pretty sure there will be many - bacause people are fed up with the politics and lockdowns on one side - and the other scared and obeying group feels entitled to make counter-demonstrations against the "conspiracy theorists, covid deniers, nazis, vaccination refusers, global warming deniers, masks and social distancing refusers and illegal private parties people..." ) It boils down of pro and contra CORONA clashes.

It is fun to watch the hystery and fanatism that divides the society and drives people crazy. Divide and conquer. It is a pandemic, it is a political power grab pandemic, but a vaccine won't help to curb it.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Seems only some few developed countries with high media usage could scare their citizens enough to make them crave for the shot and make a big part of the population get it.
...
Smells like a hoax to me. Especially christian family holidays like Christmas and Easter are hard affected. It is a trend to push back against religion, and Covid is a great instrument for this. I am really curious if there will be hard lockdowns for Ramadan soon too, but I doubt it - this communities are more fanatic about religion than Covid and authorities fear to mess with them.

Easter is traditionally also a time for marches and demonstrations against the policies and for freedom and peace. A lockdown and scare mongering is a very welcome event to blame and shame the opposition too.
...
It is fun to watch the hystery and fanatism that divides the society and drives people crazy. Divide and conquer. It is a pandemic, it is a political power grab pandemic, but a vaccine won't help to curb it.

just wow.

If you have vaccine hesitancy based on past experience, or general doubt, fine. It's not exactly something to preach to others, but you have a right to your opinion.

If you genuinely believe all the above conspiracy crap... well, you might be infected by something worse than COVID-19.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Interesting fact, natives and migrants in the Caribbean islands are very reluctant to get the jab, so vaccination facilities vaccine cruisers and tourists almost instantly without any waiting, just to secure the vaccine supply from the continent is not stopped from comming to the islands and the centers can fulfill their vaccination goals.

Seems only some few developed countries with high media usage could scare their citizens enough to make them crave for the shot and make a big part of the population get it.

Some more shaming just comming up in Germany, blaming queue-jumpers and hustlers getting their shot earlier has caused thousends of deaths of the vulnerable age groups in ITALY, that could not get the jab quick enough. Such statements heat up the discussion and also the urge to get the jab or die - but also to subscribe fir the shot.

Very interesting is a statistical correlation of holidays and traditional vacations that leads to a huge jump of new cases and deaths, resulting in hard lockdowns and travel bans. Sounds logic? Yes, if this would occure after that vacations and holidays - but it is in reality before them - so people are imprisoned BEFORE they have a chance to have some gatherings based on "incidences" and "increased mortality" figures reported in the media.

Smells like a hoax to me. Especially christian family holidays like Christmas and Easter are hard affected. It is a trend to push back against religion, and Covid is a great instrument for this. I am really curious if there will be hard lockdowns for Ramadan soon too, but I doubt it - this communities are more fanatic about religion than Covid and authorities fear to mess with them.

Easter is traditionally also a time for marches and demonstrations against the policies and for freedom and peace. A lockdown and scare mongering is a very welcome event to blame and shame the opposition too.

I am curious if any official reporting will be done in the next days about such gatherings - I am pretty sure there will be many - bacause people are fed up with the politics and lockdowns on one side - and the other scared and obeying group feels entitled to make counter-demonstrations against the "conspiracy theorists, covid deniers, nazis, vaccination refusers, global warming deniers, masks and social distancing refusers and illegal private parties people..." ) It boils down of pro and contra CORONA clashes.

It is fun to watch the hystery and fanatism that divides the society and drives people crazy. Divide and conquer. It is a pandemic, it is a political power grab pandemic, but a vaccine won't help to curb it.

Be interesting to see what happens at the 'Kill the Bill' protests in the UK this weekend and the 'Giles Jaunes' marches this weekend across France..