Covid vaccines: risk vs benefit alarming news

[HeinSdL]

The more I hear this anti-vaxxer terminology, coming from those who could equally be termed 'blindly unquestioning', the more I am inclined to sympathise with the anti-vaxxer point of view.

If people are sceptic about the vaccines then that is OK. And to those who don't share their point of view: convince them on the contrary. Better not to insult.

BTW the main point being made, to get vaccinated in support of the greater good, is all and well but.... it comes down to the younger generation helping out the older. In that case I would suggest the older generation also helps out the younger by ensuring there is still a planet for them to live on. Oh no! that would encroach on people's rights.

[Talk Story]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

The more I hear this anti-vaxxer terminology, coming from those who could equally be termed 'blindly unquestioning', the more I am inclined to sympathise with the anti-vaxxer point of view.

Now now, lets not starting thinking critically. We might just get cancelled if we do. Can't I just indentify as being vaccinated?

[NaClyDog]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

If people are sceptic about the vaccines then that is OK. And to those who don't share their point of view: convince them on the contrary. Better not to insult.

Whilst I agree with the general tone of your post, there is no convincing these skeptics of anything because they do not even believe in basic incontrovertible facts. For them, magic IS science.



Until critical thinking is a mandatory curriculum item in all schools all over the world, the brainwashed will continue to be the brainwashed.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

The more I hear this anti-vaxxer terminology, coming from those who could equally be termed 'blindly unquestioning', the more I am inclined to sympathise with the anti-vaxxer point of view.

If people are sceptic about the vaccines then that is OK. And to those who don't share their point of view: convince them on the contrary. Better not to insult. . ..

I strongly agree with the underlined phrase.


In fact, none of us has any choice -- any other approach is against the forum rules.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Strange, it turns out I know a lot more people who got Covid than diphtheria. Not sure what to make of this

No one gets the diseases I listed because we are vaccinated against them as children. We all were.

If we were vaccinated against covid as children, nobody would get that one either.

Covid didn’t exist in humans before last year or so. So we didn’t need to vaccinate against it.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

BTW the main point being made, to get vaccinated in support of the greater good, is all and well but.... it comes down to the younger generation helping out the older. In that case I would suggest the older generation also helps out the younger by ensuring there is still a planet for them to live on. Oh no! that would encroach on people's rights.

I agree, but both can be true. It is certainly true that age is a primary marker for poorer outcomes when exposed to the SARS-CoV-2 virus. IOW, the older one is, the greater the risk. But young people still face risk as well, so it's not a binary choice for any age group.

And yes, we are kicking the can down the generational road on many, many issues. The current older generations should be acting to address many of these very real environmental and social issues that face us today, but will become progressively (and perhaps exponentially) worse with each passing generation.

Both can be true.

It's interesting (to me) that both of your issues require people to be guided by the current best science and understanding.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

The more I hear this anti-vaxxer terminology, coming from those who could equally be termed 'blindly unquestioning', the more I am inclined to sympathise with the anti-vaxxer point of view.

If people are sceptic about the vaccines then that is OK. And to those who don't share their point of view: convince them on the contrary. Better not to insult.

BTW the main point being made, to get vaccinated in support of the greater good, is all and well but.... it comes down to the younger generation helping out the older. In that case I would suggest the older generation also helps out the younger by ensuring there is still a planet for them to live on. Oh no! that would encroach on people's rights.

Clever how you say it’s better not to insult but right in the same post insult old people by implying they are destroying the planet! And I bet you don’t even see the irony.

Most of us pro vax people aren’t any more expert regarding how the vaccine works or doesn’t work than the skeptics are so it’s pretty hard to convince anyone either way with a truly science based argument. We all are just regurgitating what those who publish info are choosing to tell us and who knows which “expert” is more right? I don’t have an advanced degree in immunology and I suspect neither do you. So I think the best available argument for everyone getting vaccinated is because even though you may not personally believe you need it, as a group WE need to get rid of this virus snd the only way to do that is for there to be as few unprotected ‘hosts’ walking around as possible. Since covid infections among old people in the US who have been vaccinated are way off their peak and falling, I think that tells us the vaccine is at least somewhat effective in limiting the spread of covid.

I think it’s pretty safe to say the planet will still be here LONG after we are all long gone and so is covid. But if you REALLY need to worry about something I suppose the planet going missing is about as good as anything else. As for trying to justify pitting the young against the old as a justification for not vaxxing, though the talk may be different, I haven’t noticed young people actually doing any more for the planet than old people have. We’re all just people and unfortunately too many, young and old, act in what they perceive as their own self interest rather than for the common good, always pointing at some other boogeyman to justify their actions. Which generation will be the first to break the mold on that? Sadly, I suspect none of the above is the correct answer.

[davil]

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/c...gn=coronavirus

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by NaClyDog

Whilst I agree with the general tone of your post, there is no convincing these skeptics of anything because they do not even believe in basic incontrovertible facts. For them, magic IS science.



Until critical thinking is a mandatory curriculum item in all schools all over the world, the brainwashed will continue to be the brainwashed.

Funny, if it comes to genders, you get canceled when referring to genetics, binary genders and XY chromosomes, even some scientists and doctors loose their jobs. When it comes to gen manipulated man made viruses and vaccines containing experimental a couple of years ago banned gen technologies, it is science, that rules.

I really enjoy this discussions with pseudo-scientists.

If I can freely identify as male, or female or a whatever of the other 153 genders based on gender sciences - I can identify as covid immunized. It is as simple as that.

Darwin works and I prefer the natural way of selection and evolution without an unpredictable meddling in my genes and immune system. As patient you allways can deny a medicine or treatement, this is a right.

It is my personal choice and will - and it has to be respected, like a patient decree or restrictions on an organ donation card.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

When it comes to gen manipulated man made viruses and vaccines containing experimental a couple of years ago banned gen technologies...

So, you don't actually understand what an mRNA vaccine is, or how it works.

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Clever how you say it’s better not to insult but right in the same post insult old people by implying they are destroying the planet! And I bet you don’t even see the irony.

Most of us pro vax people aren’t any more expert regarding how the vaccine works or doesn’t work than the skeptics are so it’s pretty hard to convince anyone either way with a truly science based argument. We all are just regurgitating what those who publish info are choosing to tell us and who knows which “expert” is more right? I don’t have an advanced degree in immunology and I suspect neither do you. So I think the best available argument for everyone getting vaccinated is because even though you may not personally believe you need it, as a group WE need to get rid of this virus snd the only way to do that is for there to be as few unprotected ‘hosts’ walking around as possible. Since covid infections among old people in the US who have been vaccinated are way off their peak and falling, I think that tells us the vaccine is at least somewhat effective in limiting the spread of covid.

I think it’s pretty safe to say the planet will still be here LONG after we are all long gone and so is covid. But if you REALLY need to worry about something I suppose the planet going missing is about as good as anything else. As for trying to justify pitting the young against the old as a justification for not vaxxing, though the talk may be different, I haven’t noticed young people actually doing any more for the planet than old people have. We’re all just people and unfortunately too many, young and old, act in what they perceive as their own self interest rather than for the common good, always pointing at some other boogeyman to justify their actions. Which generation will be the first to break the mold on that? Sadly, I suspect none of the above is the correct answer.

Need to straighten out a few things here. If my message came across as argumentative, etc, I apologize. Wasn't the intention.

In addition I also like to say in a non-combative way:

1. I am not super happy about it but will probably be vaccinated when offered (which is still quite a way off so I am a bit bemused about all this vaccine passport talk when the majority of us are not even getting close to getting vaccinated, in any case in Europe).

2. The covid crisis seems to have turned into an existential crisis for humanity. Not sure if it is or isn't but our leadership certainly is making that case, based on what the science is telling us. Curtailing not only a lot of our freedoms but also printing trillions to help the economy survive.

3. Based on scientific evidence there are other existential crises facing us, each of which can cause the end of humanity in their own right: plastic pollution, climate change, destruction of wild habitats leading to a massive loss in biodiversity (and increasing the probability of eg covid), soil erosion, pollution due to animal waste & run off of chemicals used in agriculture, nuclear proliferation, runaway technology (see eg The Social Dilemma).

What I am saying is this: We can solve the covid crisis through our ingenuity, and therefore we can also solve the other crises. I fear what is holding us back though, and what will drive us into the ground, are vested interests egged on by a BAU attitude. Regardless of the crisis, including covid, a common theme is that there is money to be made by the few, at the expense of the very many.

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

So, you don't actually understand what an mRNA vaccine is, or how it works.

Not to mention that not all the vaccines are mRNA vaccines. If you are comfortable taking the yearly flu shot or a yellow fever vaccine, then you should have no qualms about taking the J&J, Coronavac, Sputnik or any of the others that are "traditional" vaccines. Fear of mRNA vaccines should not be an obstacle to getting vaccinated. Personally, I'll take the first one that is offered.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

It's pretty clear which attitude gets the trophy for Wrong!, and is certainly a strong contender for stupid.

I think this rhetoric it is kinda stupid on both sides!

You either believe in the value of getting vaccinated or not.

If you do believe, then be honest , this is for self preservation and you would want those around you to do the same.

If you don't believe , then the resentment of people trying to hit you with a guilt trip, would make many dig in their heels.

We have the freedom to choose which some consider worth reminding others of that right.

Many will quietly change their minds, once the effects of this mass vaccination has demonstrated it's efficacy .

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by NaClyDog

Whilst I agree with the general tone of your post, there is no convincing these skeptics of anything because they do not even believe in basic incontrovertible facts. For them, magic IS science.



Until critical thinking is a mandatory curriculum item in all schools all over the world, the brainwashed will continue to be the brainwashed.

Stop talking about yourself all the time..

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Chotu

No one gets the diseases I listed because we are vaccinated against them as children. We all were.

If we were vaccinated against covid as children, nobody would get that one either.

Covid didn’t exist in humans before last year or so. So we didn’t need to vaccinate against it.

Speak for yourself mate..
I've caught chickenpox, measles (English and German) and mumps.. the only vaccinations I have had were polio and smallpox in Pakistan when I was a kid..
Tetenus is a jab I have had 3 times in 72yrs and usually as a result of m/c accidents as part of the operational procedure..
I believe they are supposed to be boosted every 10yrs.