Covid vaccines: risk vs benefit alarming news

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by UFO

My Bad, I missed the thread where a group of cruisers trolled through all the propaganda and misleading and false information to make the decision that actually when they say died with covid or tested positive for covid in the last 28 days or longer and then died actually means that covid was the primary cause of death.

To make such a statement as none is well...........................

Once again, pure obfuscation. The criteria for assigning Cause-of-Death is open to anyone who actually wants to read it. It's been posted over at that other thread a few times, and I suspect been posted here as well. It is consistent across most developed nations, and HAS NOT CHANGED since the pandemic broke.

And you can't even quote my message accurately. What I just wrote is: "NONE, statistically speaking." The bold was added so to make sure you see it this time.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Wow.. Things must be bad when folks are looking to Al-Jazeera for their statistics..
5 yrs ago they could not be trusted..

I know you’re just shti-disturbing [trolling], as usual; but, FWIW, I don’t get my information solely from any one source, including Al-Jazeera.
In this case, Al-Jazeera offered some interesting graphics, based upon information released by WHO [1] as noted on the posted graphic, JAMA, and others.

[1] WHO ➥ https://www.who.int/news/item/09-12-...wide-2000-2019

COVID-19 became a leading cause of death in the U.S. in 2020, particularly for people over age 35, according to a new report, published in JAMA [2].
“Individuals who die from homicide or cancer do not transmit the risk of morbidity and mortality to those nearby,” they wrote. “Every COVID-19 death signals the possibility of more deaths among close contacts.”
Adults over age 45 were more likely to die from COVID-19, than car crashes, respiratory diseases, drug overdoses, and suicide. And those over age 55 faced even higher rates of dying due to the coronavirus.
By October 2020, COVID-19 had become the third leading cause of death overall, for those between the ages of 45 and 84, following after heart disease and cancer. For those over age 85, COVID-19 was the second leading cause of death, surpassing cancer and following behind heart disease.
Death rates for the two leading causes [heart disease and cancer] are about 1,700 and 1,600 per day, respectively. COVID-19 deaths have surpassed these numbers individually, throughout December and, by mid-December, beat them combined.
More than 3,400 deaths were reported onecember 16/00, according to the COVID Tracking Project [3], marking an all-time high that continued to increase, through February 2021.

[2] “COVID-19 as the Leading Cause of Death in the United States” ~ Steven H. Woolf, MD, MPH et al
➥ https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2774465

[3] Covid Tracking Project - Deaths History
➥ https://covidtracking.com/data/national/deaths

“Deaths From COVID-19" ~ EDITORIAL by Howard K. Koh, MD, MPH et al
The analysis, (by Woolf et al [1]) combined with their prior research on death and life expectancy trends, suggest 4 major conclusions.
➥ https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2774464

“Provisional data on causes of death, January to April 2019 and January to April 2020" ~ Statistics Canada
➥ https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail...00703b-eng.htm

[sailorboy1]

Wow people, just wow.

[boatman61]

No.. the obfuscation is coming from the authorities.. deaths are reported as having died within 28 days of testing positive. This is a catch all claim where the virus is concerned..

On a death certificate, there are spaces to list an immediate cause of death, as well as the chain of events that led to that final disease or incident. There are also spaces for adding contributing factors. For COVID-19, the immediate cause of death might be listed as respiratory distress, with the second line reading “due to COVID-19.”
Contributing factors such as heart disease, diabetes or high blood pressure would then be listed further down.
No autopsies are carried out to determine actual cause of death.. and let's face it..
Respiratory failure is the cause of All deaths.. which is handy.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by GordMay

I know you’re just shti-disturbing [trolling], as usual; but, FWIW, I don’t get my information solely from any one source, including Al-Jazeera.
In this case, Al-Jazeera offered some interesting graphics, based upon information released by WHO [1] as noted on the posted graphic, JAMA, and others.

[1] WHO ➥ https://www.who.int/news/item/09-12-...wide-2000-2019

COVID-19 became a leading cause of death in the U.S. in 2020, particularly for people over age 35, according to a new report, published in JAMA [2].
“Individuals who die from homicide or cancer do not transmit the risk of morbidity and mortality to those nearby,” they wrote. “Every COVID-19 death signals the possibility of more deaths among close contacts.”
Adults over age 45 were more likely to die from COVID-19, than car crashes, respiratory diseases, drug overdoses, and suicide. And those over age 55 faced even higher rates of dying due to the coronavirus.
By October 2020, COVID-19 had become the third leading cause of death overall, for those between the ages of 45 and 84, following after heart disease and cancer. For those over age 85, COVID-19 was the second leading cause of death, surpassing cancer and following behind heart disease.
Death rates for the two leading causes [heart disease and cancer] are about 1,700 and 1,600 per day, respectively. COVID-19 deaths have surpassed these numbers individually, throughout December and, by mid-December, beat them combined.
More than 3,400 deaths were reported onecember 16/00, according to the COVID Tracking Project [3], marking an all-time high that continued to increase, through February 2021.

[2] “COVID-19 as the Leading Cause of Death in the United States” ~ Steven H. Woolf, MD, MPH et al
➥ https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2774465

[3] Covid Tracking Project - Deaths History
➥ https://covidtracking.com/data/national/deaths

“Deaths From COVID-19" ~ EDITORIAL by Howard K. Koh, MD, MPH et al
The analysis, (by Woolf et al [1]) combined with their prior research on death and life expectancy trends, suggest 4 major conclusions.
➥ https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2774464

“Provisional data on causes of death, January to April 2019 and January to April 2020" ~ Statistics Canada
➥ https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail...00703b-eng.htm

My apologies for upsetting your ego..
I was having a laugh at how things change.. I remember Al-Jazeera being called unreliable on here over reports on things in the Gulf.. I too read/listen to many sources and come to my own independent conclusions.. sadly I am not as eloquent as some here.. nor as skilled at copy and paste.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by boatman61

No.. the obfuscation is coming from the authorities.. deaths are reported as having died within 28 days of testing positive. This is a catch all claim where the virus is concerned..

Cause of Death in Covid-19 cases is no different from any other Cause of Death assignment. It has not changed during this pandemic year. No one complains or questions the deaths assigned to heart disease, stroke influenza or ebola. It is not done by politicians. It is done by medical staff. The attempt to do it with Covid-19 is pure politics.

Originally Posted by boatman61

Respiratory failure is the cause of All deaths.. which is handy.

Almost everyone dies with comorbidities. That doesn't affect the way Cause of Death is assigned. Once again, the attempt to dismiss or diminish Covid-19 deaths is pure politics.

[motion30]

Originally Posted by Azul

With respect GordMay, you are the one spreading disinformation. Bossche has vast impeccable credentials and ZERO personal gain from posting his warning. He has been a consultant and advocate for vaccines including working for the Gates Foundation. But not this vaccine in this setting. The article you cited is the exact opposite of the truth. It is Big Pharm, WHO, CDC et al that are the ones well financed and out to crush any debate.

Shame on you. And stupidly (this is putting it mildly) calling Bossche an anti-vaxxer is liking calling Hitler a beacon of sympathy. I don't care how many times you add your "this is BS" disclaimer I will call you on it and ask you to produce more than vapid propaganda.

I don't have an agenda. My career was largely sympathetic to Big Pharm. When I retired I had enough time to do research for hours a day on these subjects and realize what a bunch of lying criminals they are. This is not a political statement, although I have completely lost faith in anything the US government says in recent years. Both the left and the right politicians are in bed with Big Pharm, Big Data, and Big Agriculture. Toxic food, neverending sickness care instead ozf wellness promotion, censorship and control of our personal data used to control our thinking. People need to turn off their televisions and read both sides of the issues and decide for themselves where the truth resides.

Anyway, thanks for bumping this thread. I think this is a vitally important issue for people to examine before they decide to take the covid vaccine. Once you take it, there are permanent changes to your immune function and by definition the long term effects are completely unknown. FIRST DO NO HARM.

You seem to have gotten very emotional and you certainly seem to have an agenda

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Cause of Death in Covid-19 cases is no different from any other Cause of Death assignment. It has not changed during this pandemic year. No one complains or questions the deaths assigned to heart disease, stroke influenza or ebola. The attempt to do it with Covid-19 pure politics.



Almost everyone dies with comorbidities. That doesn't affect the way Cause of Death is assigned. Once again, the attempt to dismiss or diminish Covid-19 deaths is pure politics.

And conflating them isn't..???

[Pelagic]

Mike
My only experience hear in Subic Base with a Covid death was a friend in late 50's that had no symptoms, worked all day at his factory, then keeled over from an apparent heart attack that night.

At local hospital in morgue he was tested 8 hrs later for Covid which showed Positive.

Family and friends did not believe it, asked for a blood test, hospital refused and cremated body wthout any sermon or access by wife an children.

Family and all Factory employees were all quarantined for 2 weeks, all tested negative.

To date, this is the only recorded COVID death of a Subic Freeport resident after 12 months of stringent lockdown.

In developed countries , how do they verify that Covid was the cause of death on a corpse?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by boatman61

And conflating them isn't..???

Conflating what? What is "them"?

Originally Posted by Pelagic

To date, this is the only recorded COVID death of a Subic Freeport resident after 12 months of stringent lockdown.

Sounds odd to me.

Originally Posted by Pelagic

In developed countries , how do they verify that Covid was the cause of death on a corpse?

I don't know beyond the general reporting. Lab test and/or clinical presentation I assume. Similar to how other other diseases and dysfuctions are diagnosed.

Of course there is room for error. No test is 100%, and many of those used to identify the SARS-CoV-2 virus have been shown to have significant error ranges. There is no doubt false positives in the group, as there will also be false negatives.

The point though, is that how Cause of Death is assigned hasn't changed with Covid-19 victims. There will be errors made, but that doesn't invalidate the numbers or the processes.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Cause of Death in Covid-19 cases is no different from any other Cause of Death assignment. It has not changed during this pandemic year. No one complains or questions the deaths assigned to heart disease, stroke influenza or ebola. It is not done by politicians. It is done by medical staff. The attempt to do it with Covid-19 is pure politics.



Almost everyone dies with comorbidities. That doesn't affect the way Cause of Death is assigned. Once again, the attempt to dismiss or diminish Covid-19 deaths is pure politics.

Politics, maneuvering and manipulation are all this pandemic has been about, Can't believe that you can not see that.


You also seem to ignore the point that if you test positive for Covid and die within a month, that is a covid death statistic or are you denying that simple fact? Because without autopsies to ascertain the exact cause of death you can not say with any level of confidence that Joe six-packs heart attack that killed him was actually caused by Covid, rather than just one of the millions of people that die of heart attacks each year and who had recently had covid.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by UFO

Politics, maneuvering and manipulation are all this pandemic has been about, Can't believe that you can not see that.

That's because I get my news from a wide variety of sources.

Originally Posted by UFO

You also seem to ignore the point that if you test positive for Covid and die within a month, that is a covid death statistic or are you denying that simple fact?

Show me where it says that a Covid-19 diagnosis overrides all other clinical or pharmacological information.

If you have Covid-19 and die in a car crash, the Cause of Death will not say Covid-19. If you are terminal with colon cancer but also get Covid-19 near the end, the Cause of Death will be colon cancer, but with Covid-19 listed as a contributing factor. That will not make it a Covid-19 death.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

That's because I get my news from a wide variety of sources.



Show me where it says that a Covid-19 diagnosis overrides all other clinical or pharmacological information.

If you have Covid-19 and die in a car crash, the Cause of Death will not say Covid-19. If you are terminal with colon cancer but also get Covid-19 near the end, the Cause of Death will be colon cancer, but with Covid-19 listed as a contributing factor. That will not make it a Covid-19 death.

Well the car crash covid death has happened, along with a motorcycle one as well.


As far as of colon cancer or a heart attack and you have covid as a contributing factor, then you are down as a covid statistic - That is why there is only 6% of deaths listed as covid with the rest being covid with comorbidities - Who is to say that it was actually covid or the heart attack that was the actual cause of death - As I said no autopsies no real knowledge of what people "Actually" died of. Show me the autopsies on the 2.7 million people proving that they were killed by Covid.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Show me where it says that a Covid-19 diagnosis overrides all other clinical or pharmacological information.

If you have Covid-19 and die in a car crash, the Cause of Death will not say Covid-19. If you are terminal with colon cancer but also get Covid-19 near the end, the Cause of Death will be colon cancer, but with Covid-19 listed as a contributing factor. That will not make it a Covid-19 death.

Mike, in England that is precisely how COVID-19 deaths are reported. Any death where there has been a positive COVID-19 test in the previous 28 days is reported as a COVID-19 death.

Here is the UK government link for this:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/n...ovid-19-deaths

[sagablu]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I understand both, the mRNA and the Vaccines with alive modified Chimp Flu viruses, where part of their DNA was replaced by C19 genes for the spike proteins and human DNA to cover them and ease the entry and infection of human cells to provoke an immune answer.

If I were in a bio lab in Wuhan, that is exactly what would be necessary to be done to enable a bat / pangolin virus to sneak into a human cell, isn't it - just make it fit, cover it and sneak it in?

I think, GEN manipulations should be banned worldwide, like chemical and nuclear weapons and this labs should be shut down.

I'm sorry, but it's clear you do not understand and MRNA vaccine and your presenting misinformation as a fact. There is no animal component within an MRNA vaccine. The MRNA component is derived from a synthetic DNA plasmid. From that the RNA component is extracted. To look at it another way it is just a harmless copy of the spike protein that evokes an immune response. There is no virus of any kind within the vaccine.

If you took a quick look before posting you would have found hundreds of articles about this process. I don't mean to be argumentative but since you didn't do this you're either getting your news from wholly unreliable sources or you have an agenda that you're trying to put forth. Secondly, from whatever source you heard that there is chimp DNA or anything from a pangolin within the virus consider to be wholly unreliable. I assume you are getting this information from one of those wacky right wing news sources, sorry but they just propaganda.

FYI, I've been a Republican all my life, I'm just wasn't around when we were handing out the Kool-Aid