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HeinSdL · 22-03-2021, 07:36

If I was desperately ill with some illness I would be quite scared about catching the corona virus (or any other virus for that matter), because it would probably kill me. Now I know I would no longer be around to care, but if this exact situation were to happen I would be surprised if the cause of death was covid.

Yet that does seem to be happening right? And I think that is a nonsense.

Having said that.... If I was working in health care having been subjected to cut after cut after cut in health care funding I would also grab this opportunity by the horns to teach those politicians a lesson. The number of ICUs in NL have for example been decimated over the last decade or so which is one of the reasons why the health care service is so stretched currently (and the main guy presiding over this strategy has just been handily re-elected).

**boatman61** · 22-03-2021, 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Conflating what? What is "them"?

Go back and read the post again..
The 'them' are those you were politicizing..

Dead people..

Mike OReilly · 22-03-2021, 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Mike, in England that is precisely how COVID-19 deaths are reported. Any death where there has been a positive COVID-19 test in the previous 28 days is reported as a COVID-19 death.

Here is the UK government link for this:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/n...ovid-19-deaths

This just specifies that a positive Covid-19 test within 28 days will be considered valid evidence of the patient having Covid-19. This doesn't say Covid-19 will be assigned as the underlying cause of death in all these cases.

I'll post the WHO guidelines for assigning underlying cause of death once again. It describes the standard process used in all western developed (and many lesser developed) countries.

https://www.who.int/classifications/...ID-19.pdf?ua=1

None of this precludes mistakes. And yes, I'm sure there are some nefarious actors out there messing with some data. But this doesn't invalidate the whole system. This is the same failed argument made for an unnamed former president who claimed victory because a few cases of voter fraud was identified.

Mike OReilly · 22-03-2021, 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Go back and read the post again..
The 'them' are those you were politicizing..

Dead people..

I wasn't politicizing or conflating anything. I was using those others as examples. This criticism of how underlying cause of death is assigned has only emerged around Covid-19 cases. You don't find that the least bit odd?

**boatman61** · 22-03-2021, 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

This just specifies that a positive Covid-19 test within 28 days will be considered valid evidence of the patient having Covid-19. This doesn't say Covid-19 will be assigned as the underlying cause of death in all these cases.

I'll post the WHO guidelines for assigning underlying cause of death once again. It describes the standard process used in all western developed (and many lesser developed) countries.

https://www.who.int/classifications/...ID-19.pdf?ua=1

None of this precludes mistakes. And yes, I'm sure there are some nefarious actors out there messing with some data. But this doesn't invalidate the whole system. This is the same failed argument made for an unnamed former president who claimed victory because a few cases of voter fraud was identified.

Mike.. The 125000+ deaths reported in the government statements/news in the UK are deaths within 28 days of testing positive..
There are no autopsies to confirm this.. just a list of things the victim was being treated for and medication.
You are a Covid death if a test shows positive be it before or after death.

**Seaworthy Lass** · 22-03-2021, 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

This just specifies that a positive Covid-19 test within 28 days will be considered valid evidence of the patient having Covid-19. This doesn't say Covid-19 will be assigned as the underlying cause of death in all these cases.

It may not be listed as the underlying cause of death on the death certificate, but a positive test within 28 days of death is the basis used for reporting COVID-19 deaths in the UK. It is this data you see displayed.

This is precisely what the UK website states:
“The 4 UK Chief Medical Officers have recommended that a single, consistent measure is adopted for daily reporting of deaths across the UK. The UK government and the devolved administrations have agreed to publish the number of deaths that occurred within 28 days of a positive lab-confirmed COVID test result on a daily basis.”

This is the UK graph from yesterday. Note the explanation on the bottom of how COVID-19 deaths are counted:

**boatman61** · 22-03-2021, 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I wasn't politicizing or conflating anything. I was using those others as examples. This criticism of how underlying cause of death is assigned has only emerged around Covid-19 cases. You don't find that the least bit odd?

Not really..

20/07/2020 · A person in their 20s, who was killed in a motorcycle accident, was initially reported to have died from COVID-19, according to Dr. Raul Pino, Health Officer for the Florida Department of Health ...

There are many cases where the families have disputed cause of death in the UK however Covid is a convenient catch all it seems.
Most believed in WMD.. some of us thought it was state bull crap, just like the reason for going in.
Two sides to every fence.. just down to your side being painted over..

gamayun · 22-03-2021, 08:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

Or I will seek effective treatment using safer older drugs, like India, who have a much lower death rate than most western countries.

I think you are angry primarily over my non compliance. This country was founded on the basis of individual rights. You take your vaccine. You have no real idea if it is going to work against all the new variants. You behave as if in the rest of the world the same thing is going to happen as here, but it will not because those other people cant afford this treatment and do not have governments that can print money the way the western nations are doing now more than ever.

So if you plan to leave the US territorial waters or get on a plane, just remember the rest of the world is going to be full of virus incubators all hell bent on your death.....

If I get extremely ill Im not going to a hospital to drown in my bodily fluid. No thanks. I spent my late teens walking over 2000 miles lifting land mines, I probably know more about death than you could ever imagine.

This is why I stop reading this stuff. Here's a quote from the Washington Post this morning (maybe fake news to some of you....whateva).

"Some states in India, which has the highest coronavirus caseload after the United States and Brazil, are seeking to accelerate the vaccination drive, as the country reported its most COVID-19 cases and deaths in months on Monday."

Mike OReilly · 22-03-2021, 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Mike.. The 125000+ deaths reported in the government statements/news in the UK are deaths within 28 days of testing positive..
There are no autopsies to confirm this.. just a list of things the victim was being treated for and medication.
You are a Covid death if a test shows positive be it before or after death.

Yes, ALL Covid-19 deaths (in the UK) which have the Underlying Cause of Death as Covid-19 will have a positive test within the previous 28 days. But not all who die with a positive test for Covid-19 will have the disease assigned as the Underlying Cause of Death.

This is what people don't seem to understand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

20/07/2020 · A person in their 20s, who was killed in a motorcycle accident, was initially reported to have died from COVID-19, according to Dr. Raul Pino, Health Officer for the Florida Department of Health ...

Yes yes, the famous motorcycle accident. Sorry... no system is perfect. I thought this demand for purity only came from the wacky lefty side of the political spectrum.

**boatman61** · 22-03-2021, 08:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Yes, ALL Covid-19 deaths (in the UK) which have the Underlying Cause of Death as Covid-19 will have a positive test within the previous 28 days. But not all who die with a positive test for Covid-19 will have the disease assigned as the Underlying Cause of Death.

This is what people don't seem to understand.

Yes I do understand.. but it seems you do not..
Cause is irrelevant, just that they tested Positive 28 days prior to death.. and there have been lots of false positives as we all know.
No dispute Covid has had a lot of casualties, just the method used to arrive at the total.. but then we all know the Fear Factor makes for a good motivator..

Westcliffe01 · 22-03-2021, 08:44

There you are. Based on this survey, fully 68% of US healthcare workers do not deem the vaccine as safe or effective. Thats a lot more than a majority of healthcare workers. Maybe they know something the ignorant masses do not ?

sv_pelagia · 22-03-2021, 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

There you are. Based on this survey, fully 68% of US healthcare workers do not deem the vaccine as safe or effective. Thats a lot more than a majority of healthcare workers. Maybe they know something the ignorant masses do not ?

Do math much?

36% of health care workers (same as general population). Much lower if only those with university education considered.

Mike OReilly · 22-03-2021, 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61

Yes I do understand.. but it seems you do not..
Cause is irrelevant, just that they tested Positive 28 days prior to death.. and there have been lots of false positives as we all know.
No dispute Covid has had a lot of casualties, just the method used to arrive at the total.. but then we all know the Fear Factor makes for a good motivator..

That's exactly the point. "Cause" is not irrelevant at all. Cause, as in causal, as in to cause something to happen, is exactly what an assignment of Underlying Cause of Death is. A positive Covid-19 test is necessary, but not sufficient for this assignment.

There's nothing new being applied here to Covid-19 cases. The method has not changed.

Now, there's plenty of room to quibble about specific cases. These determinations are ultimately made by medical professionals who are as flawed as the rest of us. But unless you're suggesting some mass conspiracy by all the doctors who have been gotten-to by the Illuminati, or the Masons, or Big Pharma, or... The point is, the method hasn't changed.

And like I say, no one is suggesting there's some big conspiracy around the assignments of Underlying Cause of Death in relation to any other cause (some of which I used as examples). It's just Covid-19.

Shouldn't THAT suggest where the conspiracy really lies?

**boatman61** · 22-03-2021, 09:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

That's exactly the point. "Cause" is not irrelevant at all. Cause, as in causal, as in to cause something to happen, is exactly what an assignment of Underlying Cause of Death is. A positive Covid-19 test is necessary, but not sufficient for this assignment.

There's nothing new being applied here to Covid-19 cases. The method has not changed.

Now, there's plenty of room to quibble about specific cases. These determinations are ultimately made by medical professionals who are as flawed as the rest of us. But unless you're suggesting some mass conspiracy by all the doctors who have been gotten-to by the Illuminati, or the Masons, or Big Pharma, or... The point is, the method hasn't changed.

And like I say, no one is suggesting there's some big conspiracy around the assignments of Underlying Cause of Death in relation to any other cause (some of which I used as examples). It's just Covid-19.

Shouldn't THAT suggest where the conspiracy really lies?

No.. The Illuminati is for Dan Brown fans.
What I am saying is.. if cause of death was cancer or cardiac arrest or brain hemmorage, if they had a positive test within 28 days it's listed as a Covid death in the numbers.. they did not die Because of Covid.. just possibly With Covid..
Its like having Herpes and dying of a stroke and being listed in the Herpes column..
Misinformation for convenience.. just bung em in the freezer till they can be burnt.