Covid vaccines: risk vs benefit alarming news

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by boatman61

No.. The Illuminati is for Dan Brown fans.
What I am saying is.. if cause of death was cancer or cardiac arrest or brain hemmorage, if they had a positive test within 28 days it's listed as a Covid death in the numbers.. they did not die Because of Covid.. just possibly With Covid..
Its like having Herpes and dying of a stroke and being listed in the Herpes column..
Misinformation for convenience.. just bung em in the freezer till they can be burnt.

You're just wrong on this. Underlying Cause of Death is assigned as it has always been. Someone who has cancer but dies in a plane crash or is killed by influenza is not assigned as a cancer death. It's a co-morbidity.


The fact that they had Covid-19 WOULD add to the infection numbers reported in the community, but it's not necessarily the Underlying Cause of Death.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

You're just wrong on this. Underlying Cause of Death is assigned as it has always been. Someone who has cancer but dies in a plane crash or is killed by influenza is not assigned as a cancer death. It's a co-morbidity.


The fact that they had Covid-19 WOULD add to the infection numbers reported in the community, but it's not necessarily the Underlying Cause of Death.

Okay.. If you want to refuse simple facts that's fine by me..
Spin however you want..

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Okay.. If you want to refuse simple facts that's fine by me..
Spin however you want..

It's not a fact. The FACT is, the method for assigning Underlying Causes of Death is as I just posted. Go through it. It is pretty clear and easy to follow. It does not mean every corpse with Covid-19 is assigned an Underlying Cause of Death of Covid-19. I don't know how to make this more plain.

Are there errors? Of course. There may even be bias one way, or the other, when it comes to grey zone cases. These are ultimately done by medical professionals, most of whom claim to be human. And we all agree that humans tend to have flaws.

But the methodology does NOT state that any sniff of Covid-19 means this is an automatic assignment of Underlying Cause of Death. It will be listed, but it is not the Underlying Cause, and therefore is not listed in the simple death stats.

It would be listed in the infection rate stats, which is maybe where all this misinformation is coming from.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

You're just wrong on this. Underlying Cause of Death is assigned as it has always been. Someone who has cancer but dies in a plane crash or is killed by influenza is not assigned as a cancer death. It's a co-morbidity.


The fact that they had Covid-19 WOULD add to the infection numbers reported in the community, but it's not necessarily the Underlying Cause of Death.

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

It's not a fact. The FACT is, the method for assigning Underlying Causes of Death is as I just posted. Go through it. It is pretty clear and easy to follow. It does not mean every corpse with Covid-19 is assigned an Underlying Cause of Death of Covid-19. I don't know how to make this more plain.

Are there errors? Of course. There may even be bias one way, or the other, when it comes to grey zone cases. These are ultimately done by medical professionals, most of whom claim to be human. And we all agree that humans tend to have flaws.

But the methodology does NOT state that any sniff of Covid-19 means this is an automatic assignment of Underlying Cause of Death. It will be listed, but it is not the Underlying Cause, and therefore is not listed in the simple death stats.

It would be listed in the infection rate stats, which is maybe where all this misinformation is coming from.

Published:
12 August 2020

New methodology introduced following urgent review
Deaths in people with COVID-19 that occurred within 28 days of testing positive will be published daily
The approach, endorsed by the four UK Chief Medical Officers, will be used by all 4 UK nations
The 4 UK Chief Medical Officers have recommended that a single, consistent measure is adopted for daily reporting of deaths across the UK. The UK government and the devolved administrations have agreed to publish the number of deaths that occurred within 28 days of a positive lab-confirmed COVID test result on a daily basis.

This will provide accurate data on the immediate impact of recent epidemic activity. The methodology has been peer reviewed by independent academics to ensure that the best possible indicators are used, and that the methods are applied consistently across the nations of the UK.

PHE and the devolved administrations have worked closely with the UK Statistics Authority on these new measures and the new approach is in line with advice from the statistics regulator.

In their review, Public Health England considered epidemiological evidence to see how likely it was that COVID-19 was a contributory factor to a death at different points in time after a positive test.

Analysis of data in England found 96% of deaths occurred within 60 days or had COVID-19 on the death certificate. 88% of deaths occurred within 28 days.

As of Wednesday August 12, the number of all deaths in patients testing positive for COVID-19 in the UK within 28 days was 41,329.

Professor John Newton, Director of Health Improvement at Public Health England, said:

The way we count deaths in people with COVID-19 in England was originally chosen to avoid underestimating deaths caused by the virus in the early stages of the pandemic.

Our analysis of the long-term impact of the infection now allows us to move to new methods, which will give us crucial information about both recent trends and overall mortality burden due to COVID-19.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

There you are. Based on this survey, fully 68% of US healthcare workers do not deem the vaccine as safe or effective. Thats a lot more than a majority of healthcare workers. Maybe they know something the ignorant masses do not ?

Am I misreading your [KFF?Washington Post] chart?
It seems [to me] to say 36% of front line health care workers are not confident that the vaccines have been properly tested.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Published:
12 August 2020

New methodology introduced following urgent review
Deaths in people with COVID-19 that occurred within 28 days of testing positive will be published daily...

Yes, I read it the first time. It is not change how Underlying Cause of Death is assigned, or how the straight death stats are reported. Deaths with Covid-19 is not the same as deaths from Covid-19.

I can see how the general public would get confused, but you're not the general public .

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Am I misreading your [KFF?Washington Post] chart?
It seems [to me] to say 36% of front line health care workers are not confident that the vaccines have been properly tested.

Indeed .

The graph clearly indicates that 64% ARE confident. So lower than ideal, but not bad news in itself.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Yes, I read it the first time. It is not change how Underlying Cause of Death is assigned, or how the straight death stats are reported. Deaths with Covid-19 is not the same as deaths from Covid-19.

I can see how the general public would get confused, but you're not the general public .

What I am saying is the 125000+ deaths have been reported as Testing Positive 28 days before death..

Example from coronavirus.data.gov.uk
659 Total number of deaths within 28 days of positive test reported in the last 7 days (14 March 2021 – 20 March 2021)

[Mike OReilly]

How about we agree that one of us is a clueless git and the other is a vivacious genius, and leave it at that .

[MarkSF]

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ed-kingdom-uk/

You can see spikes for WW1 and WW2, and then a spike in 2020. It would be reasonable to assume that the difference between 2019 and 2020 is due to Covid 19, and it's about 95,000.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

How about we agree that one of us is a clueless git and the other is a vivacious genius, and leave it at that .

I would not describe myself as 'vivacious'.. but hey!! if it floats yer boat..
Your being hard on yourself tho'.. Ehh.

[CatNewBee]

Reporting the statististics in the german media Covid deaths are counted as death with or on Covid 19.

It means they were positive tested at some point of their illness, days and weeks before their death. They may be going to hospital for one treatment and getting infected there, they may be asymptomatic and died for another reason, but PCR tested positive.

I would expect the same statistic for vaccines.

People died on or with a Covid19 Vaccine. Would be fair, wouldn't? It would make the statistics comparable.

[boatman61]

Interesting report in the Independent....

Three fully vaccinated people in Hawaii have tested positive for Covid-19, with officials using the cases to highlight that everyone needs to continue being “careful” amid the ongoing coronavirus pandemic.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by MarkSF

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ed-kingdom-uk/

You can see spikes for WW1 and WW2, and then a spike in 2020. It would be reasonable to assume that the difference between 2019 and 2020 is due to Covid 19, and it's about 95,000.

Yes, that is the kind of ballpark number that convinces a layman like me.... to follow guidelines and take precautions

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Interesting report in the Independent....

Three fully vaccinated people in Hawaii have tested positive for Covid-19, with officials using the cases to highlight that everyone needs to continue being “careful” amid the ongoing coronavirus pandemic.

Yes breakthrough has repeatedly and will continue to happen.

When the effectiveness of a vaccine is less than 100% there will be instandes of breakthrough.

The US FDA's stated goal to provide approval of a SARS-CoV-2 vaccine has always been 50%, which means that fully half of the vaccinated persons would still be expected to remain to become infected if exposed to a significant degree. To date the vaccines have proven to have much higher efficacy than the 50% regulatory threshold for allowing emergency use authorization.

Keep practicing social distancing, mask wearing, washing hands, etc. even when vaccinated. One's risk of COVID-19 disease is reduced by vaccinations but there is still significant risk.

Stay safe, stay healthy.