Covid vaccines: risk vs benefit alarming news

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

When you complain that you’ve been treated like a ‘pariah’ it sounds like you really think you’re a victim, which sounds almost millennialesque, thus the “poor boatie.” Like I said, I don’t care a bit where you smoke and I never even considered you might not be courteous in how you go about it so no need to be defensive. You seem to have quite a chip on your shoulder regarding those people who sit near a smoker and then act all outraged but it’s just as likely that they didn’t notice you were a smoker until already seated. As people are being seated they tend to be focused more on the hostess or the location of the tv or whether it’s near a door that’s drafty, etc. and not who their neighbors at the next table will be. To you the smell seems normal but non smokers noses are much more sensitive to it than yours is by now if you’re a long time smoker. That causes you to think they are being ultra sensitive about just an occasional whiff but from their perspective you’re foully polluting all the air in the whole courtyard. Not saying who’s right or wrong, just how it is. I’m not particularly sensitive to it unless the smoking is indoors and really thick, but I know lots of people who genuinely have a bad physical reaction to it. If you don’t think smoking is a huge health risk, you’re only fooling yourself.

Im not sure what you’re talking about regarding living with fears because I don’t personally have any big covid fears to live with. Like you, I seem to have a strong immune system and I’m healthy and fit (and don’t smoke) and I also have been vaccinated. As I’ve explained, the problem will be, once everyone has been offered the vaccine and most people vaccinated that the existence of a significant number of non vaccinated people will allow covid to live on and continue to mutate and eventually possibly become a strain that’s resistant to the vaccines we’re currently using.

Yes, you’ve said you’ll live with your choices and if it were that simple I’d have no complaint. But what I’ve been trying to get you to understand is that it’s not only about living with your choices but rather it’s also other people you come in contact with being forced to live with your choices, and even though it might not hurt you, it might kill some of them. You seem to not have much of a care regarding the fate of obese people who eat too many Big Macs but what about the folks with a condition that prevents them from being vaccinated? My brother in law has Lyme disease and he was told by his doctor not to get the Pfizer or Moderna vaccines so he’s patiently waiting for the J&J version and who knows when that’ll be available locally. There are other medical conditions that prevent any vaccinations. For them, we need to kill this thing!

As for making it personal, try reading a few of your own posts, ranting about an unflattering American stereotype you seem to have a real problem with. I’m proud to be an American and I’ve traveled all over the world and been treated very well and expressed my gratitude and reciprocated, and I’ve never been obese or use drugs and I don’t blame my problems on anyone else and as far as I know I’m not a victim. Sorry if that doesn’t fit the box you’d like to put me in but that’s how it is.

If you did not take it so personally you would have noticed I said US and UK.. and though I said 40% obesity for the US, I said 62% overweight for the UK rather than the obesity % of 25% so as not to seem too down on you guys.. Mac's, KFC's, Nandos etc are big in the UK as well.
Re smoking we are treated like pariahs in the US and UK.. fortunately in Portugal this is not yet the case.. as for it being a health risk, I am well aware of that and have been from an early age. however so have many jobs I have done in the past before the enlightened era of H & S in the workplace..
be it with blue asbestos, capstans, centre less grinders, welding, chemical process work, boat yards etc..
Health risks are a part of life.
I've been smoking for 67yrs.. big deal.. everyone dies sometime.. that we all know it's the how that's the coin toss.
As for your brother, that's tough but face facts, vaccines are not going to slam the door on Covid despite your desire to enforce vaccinations.. its going to keep taking lives for years to come so learn to live with it instead of grasping straws.
The Covid vaccine will become like the flu shot... a best guess option of the next years variant.. UK modeling has it at over 20,000 deaths a year at least.. and considering annual flu deaths run between 25,000 and 62,000/yr I see that as overly optimistic.
Hell... you don't even know if the vaccine lasts longer than natural immune resistance in survivors.
Its Good News Week..

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

Then regarding the number of fatalities, many people died with covid as opposed to from it. Anyone who tested positive was called a covid victim regardless of whether the cause of death was a car accident. But I understand that government needed people to be afraid so that they would comply and the media was active in promoting this fear globally.

I would not bother wasting your time, that simple fact is beyond the comprehension of most of the populace for some reason.


If you look at the list of comorbidities all the normal ones that people die of each year are there in large amounts E.G Heart Failure, Diabetes, Renal Failure and so on with the number 1 comorbiditie for covid being the Flu/Pneumonia - Funny how there have now been no recorded flu deaths???


Of course it was covid that caused all these deaths that people are dying of anyway in their droves for the last century.

[DomPerignon]

All those numbers on infections and death are fake (x10) There is no pandemic, the whole thing is a scam . Forget the propaganda on tv and look at the reality around you , how many people do you know that died from covid ?
The goal is to force a vaccine passport on the people and then to force new vaccines as they wish.
If you think it’s not possible that our rulers can possibly lie to you just remember the Weapons of Mass Destruction of Sadam Hussein !!!!!!!

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by DomPerignon

All those numbers on infections and death are fake (x10) There is no pandemic, the whole thing is a scam . Forget the propaganda on tv and look at the reality around you , how many people do you know that died from covid ?
The goal is to force a vaccine passport on the people and then to force new vaccines as they wish.
If you think it’s not possible that our rulers can possibly lie to you just remember the Weapons of Mass Destruction of Sadam Hussein !!!!!!!

Just curious; do you also believe 9/11 was a false flag event? That JFK was assassinated by the CIA? That the Moon landings were staged in Hollywood? And that the Earth is flat? Oh, and that Trump won the US election?

I'm betting you agree with at least two out those five.

[CarlF]

This argument is so beside the point. Once there is a surplus of vaccines available - probably late Summer in the US - it will become increasingly inconvenient to be a hold out.

Customs in virtually every country will require proof of Covid immunization at the border

Domestic flights will eventually waive the mask rule for anyone who has been immunized.

Most US employers will require it because their health insurance rates will go up if they don't - serious Covid cases are expensive to treat.

Schools will require it just like other immunizations

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

I'm more afraid of getting the vaccine than getting the disease.

A welcome burst of honesty. Bravo.

If you can arrange it, have a stroll through any big-city ICU and ask to see a COVID patient of about your age. Your fear might shift.

A former coworker of mine just got back to his job this week, after 4 weeks off, 5 days of which were in hospital. He's 15 years younger than me.

I'm not getting vaccinated for me. I'm getting vaccinated for my wife, my elderly mom, and for guys like my coworker whose family might have lost their Dad. And also so guys like Mike O can reconnect with their boats this year, and maybe after all that ... so i can sail on the NY side of L Ont this summer.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

A welcome burst of honesty. Bravo.

If you can arrange it, have a stroll through any big-city ICU and ask to see a COVID patient of about your age. Your fear might shift.

A former coworker of mine just got back to his job this week, after 4 weeks off, 5 days of which were in hospital. He's 15 years younger than me.

I'm not getting vaccinated for me. I'm getting vaccinated for my wife, my elderly mom, and for guys like my coworker whose family might have lost their Dad. And also so guys like Mike O can reconnect with their boats this year, and maybe after all that ... so i can sail on the NY side of L Ont this summer.

Better get them vaccinated instead if you really care about them. This is as stupid as wearing a mask to protect others.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by UFO

... Funny how there have now been no recorded flu deaths??? ...

“Influenza update - 388" ~ WHO
01 March 2021, based on data up to 14 February 2021
“The current influenza surveillance data should be interpreted with caution as the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic has influenced to varying extents health seeking behaviours, staffing/routines in sentinel sites, as well as testing priorities and capacities in Member States. The various hygiene and physical distancing measures implemented by Member States to reduce SARS-CoV-2 virus transmission have likely played a role in reducing influenza virus transmission.
Globally, despite continued or even increased testing for influenza in some countries, influenza activity remained at lower levels than expected for this time of the year ...”
➥ https://www.who.int/influenza/survei...rveillance/en/

“2019-2020 U.S. Flu Season: Preliminary In-Season Burden Estimates” ~ CDC
“CDC estimates* that, from October 1, 2019, through April 4, 2020, there have been:
- 39,000,000 – 56,000,000 flu illnesses
- 18,000,000 – 26,000,000 flu medical visits
- 410,000 – 740,000 flu hospitalizations
- 24,000 – 62,000 flu deaths ...
... The number of hospitalizations estimated so far this season is lower than end-of-season total hospitalization estimates for any season since CDC began making these estimates ...”
➥ https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden...-estimates.htm

[UFO]

Originally Posted by GordMay

“Influenza update - 388" ~ WHO
01 March 2021, based on data up to 14 February 2021
“The current influenza surveillance data should be interpreted with caution as the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic has influenced to varying extents health seeking behaviours, staffing/routines in sentinel sites, as well as testing priorities and capacities in Member States. The various hygiene and physical distancing measures implemented by Member States to reduce SARS-CoV-2 virus transmission have likely played a role in reducing influenza virus transmission.
Globally, despite continued or even increased testing for influenza in some countries, influenza activity remained at lower levels than expected for this time of the year ...”
➥ https://www.who.int/influenza/survei...rveillance/en/

“2019-2020 U.S. Flu Season: Preliminary In-Season Burden Estimates” ~ CDC
“CDC estimates* that, from October 1, 2019, through April 4, 2020, there have been:
- 39,000,000 – 56,000,000 flu illnesses
- 18,000,000 – 26,000,000 flu medical visits
- 410,000 – 740,000 flu hospitalizations
- 24,000 – 62,000 flu deaths ...
... The number of hospitalizations estimated so far this season is lower than end-of-season total hospitalization estimates for any season since CDC began making these estimates ...”
➥ https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden...-estimates.htm

Bit misleading their gord as that is the season before covid kicked in! The devil is in the detail as they say. You also missed the sarcasm in my comment - They are all covid deaths now.



https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireSt...ed-us-76102895

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by UFO

Bit misleading their gord as that is the season before covid kicked in! [1] ...
... They are all covid deaths now[2]
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireSt...ed-us-76102895

1. No, they're not.
2. No, they're not.


As for your ABC news item:
"... Flu has virtually disappeared from the U.S., with reports coming in at far lower levels than anything seen in decades.
Experts say that measures put in place to fend off the coronavirus — mask wearing, social distancing and virtual schooling — were a big factor in preventing a “twindemic” of flu and COVID-19. A push to get more people vaccinated against flu probably helped, too, as did fewer people traveling, they say ..."

[ol1970]

Originally Posted by DomPerignon

All those numbers on infections and death are fake (x10) There is no pandemic, the whole thing is a scam . Forget the propaganda on tv and look at the reality around you , how many people do you know that died from covid ?
The goal is to force a vaccine passport on the people and then to force new vaccines as they wish.
If you think it’s not possible that our rulers can possibly lie to you just remember the Weapons of Mass Destruction of Sadam Hussein !!!!!!!

I personally know 3 people who have died Dom, my 71 year old Uncle, my 68 year old cousin, and my 61 year old former coworker. Any other QAnon ******** you’d like to set me straight on??

[GordMay]

It's estimated that asymptomatic cases account for more than half of all transmissions of the virus, according to a recent study [1], published in the journal JAMA Network Open, by researchers at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

New data from Israel [2], where nearly 60 percent of the country's 9 million residents have received at least one dose of a vaccine, suggested that the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine is 94 percent effective at preventing asymptomatic infections.

A separate study [3], conducted by researchers at Cambridge University, in the United Kingdom, found that a single dose of the Pfizer vaccine can reduce asymptomatic infections by 75 percent. The results, which have yet to be peer-reviewed, came from an analysis of around 4,400 tests conducted on vaccinated health care workers in Cambridge over a two-week period in January.

In Johnson & Johnson's trials, the company's vaccine was found to be 74 percent effective against asymptomatic infections.

According to a report, released in December by the Food and Drug Administration [4], early data suggested that Moderna's vaccine may also protect against asymptomatic infections, but the company has said more research is needed.

In a new commentary [5], published Thursday in the journal Science, Angela Rasmussen and Saskia Popescu, detail why controlling "symptomless transmission" is critical to ending the pandemic. Symptomless transmission includes both people who have no symptoms, and those who are pre-symptomatic but later go on to develop symptoms.

As more people get vaccinated, that will have a population-wide effect on transmission, but while the majority of people right now are not vaccinated, we need to be mindful of the issue of asymptomatic, and pre-symptomatic transmission.

One way to drive down overall transmission, is to heed public health measures, that have been in place throughout the pandemic, such as practicing social distancing, wearing masks, and avoiding gatherings with unvaccinated people.

If the virus can be adequately contained, aspects of life could return to more normal, even if parts of a population are still unvaccinated. We may not need to be at the herd immunity threshold, to relax restrictions, if we can get the virus to be so uncommon in the population, that there won't be a risk of people being exposed to it, whether they're vaccinated or not.


[1] “SARS-CoV-2 Transmission From People Without COVID-19 Symptoms” ~ by Michael A. Johansson, PhD et al
➥ https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2774707


[2] “Real-World Evidence Confirms High Effectiveness of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine and Profound Public Health Impact of Vaccination One Year After Pandemic Declared”
➥ https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-re...iveness-pfizer


[3] “Single-dose BNT162b2 vaccine protects against asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection” ~ by Michael Weekes et al
➥ https://www.authorea.com/users/33277...XcCPSpdZV_Lmpg


[4] “FDA Briefing Document: Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine”
➥ https://www.fda.gov/media/144434/download


[5] “SARS-CoV-2 transmission without symptoms” ~ by Angela L. Rasmussen & Saskia V. Popescu
➥ https://science.sciencemag.org/content/371/6535/1206

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I'm not getting vaccinated for me. I'm getting vaccinated for my wife, my elderly mom, and for guys like my coworker whose family might have lost their Dad. And also so guys like Mike O can reconnect with their boats this year, and maybe after all that ... so i can sail on the NY side of L Ont this summer.

And I deeply appreciate it LE.

I'm getting the shot as soon as I can so I can help protect my elderly mother who has hardly left her apartment in over a year now, as well as all the others in my community. As an added benefit, the faster we get community-level protection, the sooner I get to see my boat (which I have not laid eyes on in over a year and a half now ).

This is what some continue to fail to understand here. All these public health measures are primarily in place to protect others. As a byproduct, they also protect you. But their primary mechanism is through community-level protection.

So no... it's never just about you. Some peoples and communities get this. Others don't. And some of these same communities have done better, or worse, in terms of case counts and corpse counts.

I speculated near the beginning of this pandemic that we'd see a strong correlation between social connectivity and community trust and health outcomes. Outside other actions such as legal lockdowns, or border closures, it is my theory that this will be the determining factor in how well areas and countries do in the final tally.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

A welcome burst of honesty. Bravo.

If you can arrange it, have a stroll through any big-city ICU and ask to see a COVID patient of about your age. Your fear might shift.

A former coworker of mine just got back to his job this week, after 4 weeks off, 5 days of which were in hospital. He's 15 years younger than me.

I'm not getting vaccinated for me. I'm getting vaccinated for my wife, my elderly mom, and for guys like my coworker whose family might have lost their Dad. And also so guys like Mike O can reconnect with their boats this year, and maybe after all that ... so i can sail on the NY side of L Ont this summer.

I think this is an illuminating post about the reality of the situation we are all in together. I really don’t understand the proliferation of conspiracy theorists and apparently politically motivated positions on either side, and I think looking at vaccinations solely from the perspective of what you think it will do or not do for you personally is pretty self centered and selfish. WE need to all get together and wipe out this threat so ALL of us can get back to living our normal lives. As you said, you don’t get vaccinated just for yourself, but rather for your more vulnerable loved ones and also guys like Mike who’d REALLY like to be reunited with his boat, but also for all the other people in the world who would like to snuff this out once and for all before it mutates into something that starts the nightmare that was 2020 all over again.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Better get them vaccinated instead if you really care about them. This is as stupid as wearing a mask to protect others.

It's pretty clear which attitude gets the trophy for Wrong!, and is certainly a strong contender for stupid.