Cruising from Spain to Turkey during this virus?!?!

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

Montanan, do you have recent actual experience how Spain is handling those travel restriction cases?

Italy won't be a problem, as the original Poster will just transit, Croatia seems to be also sorted as the final destination.

I have had to sort out essential travel visas for quite a few of our international personnel and of our suppliers in many countries for installation and repair or commissioning of vital infrastructure equipment. As well as to evolve their repatriation.

Each country immigration personnel have taken the perspective of asking why is the presence of that specific individual vital to their country's needs during the pandemic. They all ask if someone else can accomplish the task that is in country or whether remote guidance can be a feasible method. On three occasions we had to have personnel travel specifically directly to the country where the work was to be performed and not to transit through another country due to border restrictions between countries, including within the EU.

It is not a matter of the decision being whether the travel is essential from the traveler's perspective, it is from whether the travel is essential from the country's perspective. What is essential about your presence within our country?
Convincing them of that has been prerequisite to admission.

Essential:

ADJECTIVE

absolutely necessary; extremely important.

Croatia is the final destination, hence it should logically be the first destination. There being no compelling reason for Spain to welcome being an intermediary or transit point into the EU, on the contrary there are many reasons why Spain should not be involved at all, for example, the business good, will need to be transported across the entire Med, literally slowboating to Croatia.

Mind you that if the boat is being imported into the EU for business purposes, as a charter yacht operating under the ownership of a business fleet, then VAT and duty likely will be due upon first arrival into the EU, [upon arrival in Palma], but that is another matter. If the boat is being imported for recreational purposes then it can be entered under temporary admission, but recreational purposes are not essential purposes, hence no visa for the crew for essential travel purposes. I don't see how one can declare the vessel and the crew's arrival for two incompatible and completely different importation protocols, one for recreation and the other for business.

Non-EU vessels

A VAT paid yacht will encounter no difficulties in EU waters provided the vessel is not chartered. Pleasure yachts built pre-1985 and in EU waters on 31st December 1992 are treated as VAT paid. Evidence that the yacht was in EU waters on this date may be required.

Temporary importation relief from VAT is available to yachts beneficially owned and used by non EU residents provided such non EU resident does not become ordinarily resident in the EU. Domicile Residency and also Tax Residency are also entirely different topics and very country specific.

Boats owned by non-EU residents and registered outside the EU are entitled to tax free temporary importation into the EU for a total period of eighteen months. The EU Common Customs Tariff provides for relief from VAT liability for up to 18 months (Article 562(e) as referenced above) when the boat is owned by non-EU residents and where the boat will subsequently be removed from EU waters (Article 561). The permitted period, or temporary importation, applies to the entire EU area and therefore at the end of the period the boat must be sailed to a country outside the EU or VAT must be paid. The temporary importation period may be extended, at the discretion of local customs, for various bona fide reasons, such as if the boat is left unattended and unused, if the owner leaves the EU, or if the boat is left in the care of a boatyard for repair.

Those who wish to remain longer in any one EU country must deposit the ship’s papers with the local customs office, who will put the vessel under bond. The clock will then be stopped until the owner returns on board. During the period the vessel is in bond, the boat must not move from its berth, and the owner or crew are not allowed to sleep on board.

Non-EU boats remaining inside the EU for over the permitted period must be imported and VAT paid on the value of the boat. Anyone intending to do this would be well advised to import the boat into one of the EU countries with a lower VAT rate, such as Cyprus, Madeira or Malta.

There has been a harmonization of formalities concerning VAT in recent years, but there are still certain inconsistencies so the owners of boats from outside the EU should treat the matter with utmost caution and avoid being caught out. It must be stressed that the above 18-month VAT relief applies only where the boat is owned and sailed by a person not resident in the customs territory of the EU. The relief is invalidated if the boat is hired [rented or chartered], sold or put at the disposal of a EU resident.

It is essential to ascertain on arrival in a new country the exact situation concerning VAT. As non-EU boats are required to contact immigration whenever crossing a border between EU countries, this may be the time to make such enquiries.

VAT on Chartering in EU Waters

Chartering of a yacht in EU waters is treated as supply of services and is therefore a taxable supply for VAT purposes. If the owner is established in the EU member state [a resident, e.g, of Croatia] the owner will be liable to account to the VAT authorities of the member state in which he is providing such services in respect of any compensation of charter hire made within or outside EU waters.

If the owner is not established or domiciled in EU member state, no VAT will be payable on any charter hire.

A non EU flagged yacht brought into the EU by its non EU resident owner or such an owner’s charterer, who is also not established in the EU (EU resident or EU company) will be entitled to a temporary importation certificate and no VAT will be payable on the capital value of the yacht nor on the charter, provided no chartering activity commences within EU territory.

If the yacht is chartered to a non-EU resident by a non EU resident owner, then provided the charter commences and ends outside the EU, the charterer can bring the yacht into EU waters and obtain a temporary importation certificate for it.

The yacht must not commence or end a charter whilst in EU waters under a temporary importation certificate unless it is taken out of EU waters immediately.

This is all straight forward immigration and importation and tax matters albeit which immigration and business activity protocols have been amended due to the pandemic.

[Joh.Ghurt]

Originally Posted by Montanan

I have had to sort out essential travel visas for quite a few of our international personnel and of our suppliers in many countries for installation and repair or commissioning of vital infrastructure equipment. As well as to evolve their repatriation.

Thank you, that's good to know. As you stated a little further down, each country is handling this in very individual ways. Spain was in December 2020 (when they started with their lockdown) and still is now end of February / beginning of March quite liberal with the definition of business need while sometimes coming down hard on obvious tourists, specially those from Madrid or with caravans. A letter from the yard that the ship needs to be taken in hand by an agent of the owner sounds absolutely like a reason that will work here. I had something similar prepared 2 weeks ago when crossing Spain. In Asian countries, this approach didn't work so easily.

Once he has safely landed in Palma de Mallorca, as an American he'll have his 90 days to make it to Croatia without much hassles.

As to the VAT, I think this goes way beyond the topic here. First Croatia has a long tradition of ripping off sailors in most creative ways, like requiring renting a dry-space for each marina space you rent, no matter wether you use it, creative cruising permits, maliciously fining crossing into international waters. About the last, in Croatia it's very advisable to turn off your AIS transmitter. Second, there are many ways to handle this via LLCs or other means which make the application of the rules you quoted not obvious. I hope the original poster has sorted this out with a local agent and all necessary working permits too. This endeavour doesn't seem to be a spontaneous decision taken on a late Sunday afternoon when bored because there are only reruns of Gilligan's Island on the telly, so I think it's safe to assume it's taken care of.

[DougSabbag]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

Thank you, that's good to know. As you stated a little further down, each country is handling this in very individual ways. Spain was in December 2020 (when they started with their lockdown) and still is now end of February / beginning of March quite liberal with the definition of business need while sometimes coming down hard on obvious tourists, specially those from Madrid or with caravans. A letter from the yard that the ship needs to be taken in hand by an agent of the owner sounds absolutely like a reason that will work here. I had something similar prepared 2 weeks ago when crossing Spain. In Asian countries, this approach didn't work so easily.

Once he has safely landed in Palma de Mallorca, as an American he'll have his 90 days to make it to Croatia without much hassles.

As to the VAT, I think this goes way beyond the topic here. First Croatia has a long tradition of ripping off sailors in most creative ways, like requiring renting a dry-space for each marina space you rent, no matter wether you use it, creative cruising permits, maliciously fining crossing into international waters. About the last, in Croatia it's very advisable to turn off your AIS transmitter. Second, there are many ways to handle this via LLCs or other means which make the application of the rules you quoted not obvious. I hope the original poster has sorted this out with a local agent and all necessary working permits too. This endeavour doesn't seem to be a spontaneous decision taken on a late Sunday afternoon when bored because there are only reruns of Gilligan's Island on the telly, so I think it's safe to assume it's taken care of.

I am heartened to read that you think the 'invitation' from our shippers' Palma agent to take delivery of our vessel, will work to allow us entry to Palma. Especially, if we are vaccinated (Floridas' governor just announced lowering the age limit to 60, as of this upcoming Monday - which puts us into the eligible category),
And that from there, we should be successful in making our way to Croatia, however bumpy the cruise might be.
About our extended stay in Croatia, we are pretty much focused / dependent on applying for the Temporary Resident Permits and avoiding the VAT by leaving and returning within 18 month cycles.
About conducting a charter enterprise there, we are still a bit 'foggy' on the
particulars.
We are licensed by the USCG and insured properly, but, are still researching what we will need to get. What we are seeing so far, is that they are open to people bringing business into Croatia, as we would be doing. As opposed to applying for jobs there, i.e., taking jobs from the citizens there.

Thank you for the heads up about the Croatian efforts to nickel and dime people on everything they can get you for.

We know we have more to learn but we are confident there are paths to reach our goals. And, that we can do what is required.

Thank you,
Doug

[Montanan]

As to Croatia and your eventual chartering I noted this old news article, best check on whether it is still current. I have heard that Croatia is spectacular but has its oddities as mentioned in the post above. This article was about the large luxury charter boats, but touched on below 40 metre size vessels operating as charters.

Note the highlighted portion.

Croatia is on my bucket list.

Snipets therefrom:

New Charter and VAT Regulations for Croatia

From 31 JANUARY 2014

Following a meeting yesterday at the Ministry in Zagreb regarding VAT on charter and other related issues, a number of changes have been announced that will affect luxury yacht charters in Croatia for the upcoming summer season.
Back in July we released a story about Croatia becoming the 28th state member of the EU and reports that this would negatively affect charters in the region due to the tax regulations in European waters. The meeting yesterday has now confirmed that VAT on charter yachts embarking from Croatia will to be set at 13% of the total amount of the charter fee, although this will not apply to charter yachts staring outside of the region.

It was also addressed in the meeting that Croatian luxury yacht charters can be performed by both Croatia and EU flagged yachts but third country flagged yachts (non-EU with registered length over 40 metre) will need to obtain a charter license. The cost of such license will not be high and according to current information available will be approximately 300-400 Euro, although will take up to three months to issue. Therefore it is recommended that all third country flagged yachts with a registered length of 40m+ looking to embark in Croatia should apply for a license as soon as possible. The license will be valid for one year. Each license is valid for one year although the number of licenses that will be granted for next season will be limited.

It is also worth noting that commercially registered yachts under 40 metre registered length will not be allowed to embark guests in Croatia under any circumstance. They will only have the possibility to disembark guests within Croatia (for example embark in Montenegro and disembark in Croatia). This applies for yachts under 40 metre that are non-Croatian and non EU flagged.

More information regarding charters outside but visiting Croatia for a period of time is yet to be confirmed. Although Croatia has become a very popular cruising destination in recent years, renowned for its spectacular scenery and unspoilt coastline, these additional tax costs may mean that charter yachts will increasingly look to embark outside of the EU. Montenegro for example may offer the best place embark in the Adriatic as it ensures 0% VAT on charters and offer duty free fuel to all yachts.

All the best.

[DougSabbag]

Originally Posted by Montanan

As to Croatia and your eventual chartering I noted this old news article, best check on whether it is still current.

It is also worth noting that commercially registered yachts under 40 metre registered length will not be allowed to embark guests in Croatia under any circumstance. They will only have the possibility to disembark guests within Croatia (for example embark in Montenegro and disembark in Croatia). This applies for yachts under 40 metre that are non-Croatian and non EU flagged.

All the best.

Well.... that sucks. We had not read that anywhere!?!? BUT, the phrase:
"commercially registered yachts ..." gives me hope. We are not commercially registered.

[DougSabbag]

(CNN) — All visitors to Thailand must currently spend 14 days in quarantine on arrival, but now they can choose a more luxurious way to wait it out -- by staying onboard a yacht.
The only snag -- they'll have to bring their own yacht.
To take advantage of the new scheme yacht travelers will be tested by Thai authorities and then be given a digital health tracker.
The tracker will allow medical officials to monitor their pulse, blood pressure and body temperature in real time.
Visitors have to wear the tracker at all times and remain within 10 kilometers of the shore, but are otherwise free to spend the 14-day quarantine period as they wish.
Once that period has elapsed officials will analyze the data and allow travelers to disembark in Phuket.


https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/t...ntl/index.html

[Barbaria]

Greece Plans Reopening For Tourism To All Countries In May.
Now, they have been positive before..

However we have sailed France, Italy with various restrictions since October with only 30 days of total sailing lockdown. Taking a PCR test is so easy and fast, no problem if needed. Some countries even accept rapid antigenic test that can be done in 15 min.

So far we have not experienced any negative focus on cruisers if done discretely, ie. no party in the cockpit and following the local rules etc.

[boatman61]

If you can get acceptable certified proof of full vaccination for all it will open doors for you easier.

[XtaSea]

Ports in Turkey are wide open and quite active.

[DougSabbag]

Originally Posted by Barbaria

Greece Plans Reopening For Tourism To All Countries In May.
Now, they have been positive before..

However we have sailed France, Italy with various restrictions since October with only 30 days of total sailing lockdown. Taking a PCR test is so easy and fast, no problem if needed. Some countries even accept rapid antigenic test that can be done in 15 min.

So far we have not experienced any negative focus on cruisers if done discretely, ie. no party in the cockpit and following the local rules etc.

Thank you VERY MUCH for this first hand information! This is very heartening to hear - :-)
Doug

[DougSabbag]

Originally Posted by XtaSea

Ports in Turkey are wide open and quite active.

Turkey will be where we should be by the end of the summer - Thank you VERY MUCH for this first hand information! This is very heartening to hear - :-)
Doug

[DougSabbag]

Originally Posted by boatman61

If you can get acceptable certified proof of full vaccination for all it will open doors for you easier.

That is practically our top priority right now - to get vaccinated before we leave USA. I am confident we can do it.

Thank you,
Doug

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by DougSabbag

Well.... that sucks. We had not read that anywhere!?!? BUT, the phrase:
"commercially registered yachts ..." gives me hope. We are not commercially registered.

Update:

Commercially registered means the vessel has been licensed for charter in Croatia. Regulations were imposed on May 1 2017, by the Ministry of Maritime Affairs, Croatia to inhibit black charterers from entering Croatia, primarily from Greece and Turkey which economies had gone down hill and the charterers in those countries were trying to pick up business in Croatia. This was the result of tremendous efforts from the local Union of Yacht Owners and Charter Agents; who had long been pushing for changes to protect the local market and set stronger regulations for foreign boats who wish to operate in Croatian waters. The foreign flagged and unlicensed charter boats are prohibited from entering Croatian waters. Note: Foreign yachts cannot engage in cabotage (the carriage for hire of goods or passengers).

"Prior to changes put into effect on May 1, 2017, any yacht who embarked their passengers outside of Croatia, did not need to have a Croatian Charter license, nor pay VAT in Croatia. Yachts will now need to pay VAT on days spent in Croatian waters (not applicable to charters booked before regulation changes) and all non-EU flagged vessels are required to have a license to charter in Croatia, regardless of whether the charter started outside of Croatia. These changes to regulations are now more in accordance with other European Union Member States."



"The government has lifted the restriction that previously banned non-European Union charter yachts under 40 meters from chartering in Croatia. As explained by Rory Jackson of SuperyachtNews, “These restrictions, which prohibited non-EU commercial vessels under 40m chartering in Croatia, had been implemented to bolster the domestic market. However, they proved to be more costly than beneficial.” Non EU flagged yachts under 40 meters will need to secure a charter license to operate in Croatia. The license will be required even if the charter starts outside Croatia.

Useful reference
https://www.yachtscroatia.com/smart-yachting/



Sad bit of news today in Europe, Italy is returning to COVID lockdown [shops, restaurants and schools] across most of the country and will be totally locked down over Easter. Everyone is to remain at home except for essential purposes. Poland, Germany and France are all going through another wave. Frances ICU's are highly occupied, highest level in three months and is considering lockdowns, likely to be regional. The new variants are proving to be problematic.

[DougSabbag]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Update:

Commercially registered means the vessel has been licensed for charter in Croatia.
"The government has lifted the restriction that previously banned non-European Union charter yachts under 40 meters from chartering in Croatia. As explained by Rory Jackson of SuperyachtNews, “These restrictions, which prohibited non-EU commercial vessels under 40m chartering in Croatia, had been implemented to bolster the domestic market. However, they proved to be more costly than beneficial.” Non EU flagged yachts under 40 meters will need to secure a charter license to operate in Croatia. The license will be required even if the charter starts outside Croatia.

Useful reference
https://www.yachtscroatia.com/smart-yachting/

Sad bit of news today in Europe, Italy is returning to COVID lockdown [shops, restaurants and schools] across most of the country and will be totally locked down over Easter. Everyone is to remain at home except for essential purposes. Poland, Germany and France are all going through another wave. Frances ICU's are highly occupied, highest level in three months and is considering lockdowns, likely to be regional. The new variants are proving to be problematic.

Thank you very much for this information! So, it appears we can register our vessel and then charge an additional 13% to comply with the VAT tax.

All doable. :-)
Thank you,
Doug

[Joh.Ghurt]

Originally Posted by DougSabbag

Thank you very much for this information! So, it appears we can register our vessel and then charge an additional 13% to comply with the VAT tax.

Doug,

don't go by appearances. You really need an agent in Croatia familiar with the current Croatian regulations to sort those out. The simple "we can register our vessel" may be entail a lot of other costly duties and responsibilities you couldn't even imagine exists. Croatia really made ripping off yachties into an art-form - I'm not joking here. There are ton of bad stories about this, mostly in German. I alsoo know a few people who got burnt on various aspects of owning a yacht in Croatia or trying to do business with yachts there. Going by assumptions in this case will end up costing you a lot more than you ever expected.

VAT and other duties is simple afterwards.