FACT vs OPINION

[Capn Jimbo]

Silly. When folks start debating what a fact is, the world is in trouble. There is no such thing as "true facts". Fact and falsehood are exact opposites. But let's see just how smart the resident Gordo's are:


2=3 3=5 11=6 4=4 7=7 18=?


By the way only one of these is false...

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Death WITH covid ≠ death FROM covid
Think it’s like 6% of the covid seats were straight up FROM covid, which proves my driving to the test is more dangerous point
Here’s it from a politician who’s also a doctor, and is into fringe extremist stuff like the bill of rights lol
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...&v=ElN5nlGUAi8

The linked Ron Paul webcast was based on a Aug. 26, 2020, report from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, on COVID-19 deaths in the US, based on data from death certificates. The report did state that “For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death.”

However, this does not mean that “of the approximately165,000 ‘Covid deaths’ less than ten thousand died from Covid,” as the RonPaulInstitute.org claimed. The cause of death section on a death certificate, under CDC guidelines (last revised in 2003), contains two parts. Part I lists the chain of events that led directly to the death, including the underlying cause that initiated those events, while Part II contains other significant conditions that contributed to the death, but did not result in the underlying cause. In 92 percent of all deaths that mentioned COVID-19,that disease is listed as the underlying cause of death.

Dr. Anthony Fauci addressed this false claim, in an interview on ABC’s “Good Morning America”, in September 2020. The CDC data “does not mean that someone who has hypertension or diabetes, who dies of COVID didn't die of COVID-19. They did,” Fauci said. “So the numbers that you've been hearing, the 180,000-plus deaths, are real deaths from COVID-19. Let there not be any confusion about that.”

So, we have two Medical Doctors, disagreeing:

Dr. Ron Paul, the obstetrician turned Libertarian/Republication politician, who falsely promoted the anti-malaria drug hydroxychloroquine asa proven cure for COVID-19.

See “BigPharma, Government, and The Media Are Blocking Coronavirus Treatments. Why?” The Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity : Big Pharma, Government, and The Media Are Blocking Coronavirus Treatments. Why?


vs


Dr. Anthony Fauci, the physician and immunologist (for more than 50 years), who has served as the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) since 1984, and one of the world's leading experts on infectious diseases, whom The New Yorker and The New York Times described as one of the most trusted medical figures in the United States.
In a 2020 analysis of Google Scholar citations, Dr. Fauci ranked as the 32nd most-cited living researcher. According to the Web of Science, Dr. Fauci ranked 7th out of more than 1.8 million authors in the field of immunology by total citation count between 1980 and January 2020.
He also has received 45 honorary doctoral degrees from universities in the United States and abroad.
Dr. Fauci is a member of the National Academy of Sciences, the National Academy of Medicine, the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and the American Philosophical Society, as well as other professional societies including the American College of Physicians, the American Society for Clinical Investigation, the Association of American Physicians, the Infectious Diseases Society of America, the American Association of Immunologists, and the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma & Immunology. He serves on the editorial boards of many scientific journals; as an editor of Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine; and as author, coauthor, or editor of more than 1,300 scientific publications, including several textbooks.
He helped pioneer the field of human immunoregulation by making important basic scientific observations that underpin the current understanding of the regulation of the human immune response. In addition, Dr. Fauci is widely recognized for delineating the precise ways that immunosuppressive agents modulate the human immune response. He developed effective therapies for formerly fatal inflammatory and immune-mediated diseases such as polyarteritis nodosa, granulomatosis with polyangiitis (formerly Wegener's granulomatosis), and lymphomatoid granulomatosis. A 1985 Stanford University Arthritis Center Survey of the American Rheumatism Association membership ranked Dr. Fauci’s work on the treatment of polyarteritis nodosa and granulomatosis with polyangiitis among the most important advances in patient management in rheumatology over the previous 20 years.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by GordMay

The linked Ron Paul webcast was based on a Aug. 26, 2020, report from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, on COVID-19 deaths in the US, based on data from death certificates. The report did state that “For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death.”

However, this does not mean that “of the approximately165,000 ‘Covid deaths’ less than ten thousand died from Covid,” as the RonPaulInstitute.org claimed. The cause of death section on a death certificate, under CDC guidelines (last revised in 2003), contains two parts. Part I lists the chain of events that led directly to the death, including the underlying cause that initiated those events, while Part II contains other significant conditions that contributed to the death, but did not result in the underlying cause. In 92 percent of all deaths that mentioned COVID-19,that disease is listed as the underlying cause of death.

Dr. Anthony Fauci addressed this false claim, in an interview on ABC’s “Good Morning America”, in September 2020. The CDC data “does not mean that someone who has hypertension or diabetes, who dies of COVID didn't die of COVID-19. They did,” Fauci said. “So the numbers that you've been hearing, the 180,000-plus deaths, are real deaths from COVID-19. Let there not be any confusion about that.”

So, we have two Medical Doctors, disagreeing:

Dr. Ron Paul, the obstetrician turned Libertarian/Republication politician, who falsely promoted the anti-malaria drug hydroxychloroquine asa proven cure for COVID-19.

See “BigPharma, Government, and The Media Are Blocking Coronavirus Treatments. Why?” The Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity : Big Pharma, Government, and The Media Are Blocking Coronavirus Treatments. Why?


vs


Dr. Anthony Fauci, the physician and immunologist (for more than 50 years), who has served as the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) since 1984, and one of the world's leading experts on infectious diseases, whom The New Yorker and The New York Times described as one of the most trusted medical figures in the United States.
In a 2020 analysis of Google Scholar citations, Dr. Fauci ranked as the 32nd most-cited living researcher. According to the Web of Science, Dr. Fauci ranked 7th out of more than 1.8 million authors in the field of immunology by total citation count between 1980 and January 2020.
He also has received 45 honorary doctoral degrees from universities in the United States and abroad.
Dr. Fauci is a member of the National Academy of Sciences, the National Academy of Medicine, the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and the American Philosophical Society, as well as other professional societies including the American College of Physicians, the American Society for Clinical Investigation, the Association of American Physicians, the Infectious Diseases Society of America, the American Association of Immunologists, and the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma & Immunology. He serves on the editorial boards of many scientific journals; as an editor of Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine; and as author, coauthor, or editor of more than 1,300 scientific publications, including several textbooks.
He helped pioneer the field of human immunoregulation by making important basic scientific observations that underpin the current understanding of the regulation of the human immune response. In addition, Dr. Fauci is widely recognized for delineating the precise ways that immunosuppressive agents modulate the human immune response. He developed effective therapies for formerly fatal inflammatory and immune-mediated diseases such as polyarteritis nodosa, granulomatosis with polyangiitis (formerly Wegener's granulomatosis), and lymphomatoid granulomatosis. A 1985 Stanford University Arthritis Center Survey of the American Rheumatism Association membership ranked Dr. Fauci’s work on the treatment of polyarteritis nodosa and granulomatosis with polyangiitis among the most important advances in patient management in rheumatology over the previous 20 years.

I haven’t kept up.

I remember this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PRa6t_e7dgI

Also I remember Fauci at a baseball game without a mask.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wus...0-13293c96572f

Who is this Fauci guy and why are people cherry picking what he’s saying?

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Many have (mis) used that CDC statement to imply that COVID-19 has only actually killed ~9000 people in the US (as pointed out in the Snopes article), and it seemed to me like you were trying to go there - in other words that COVID-19 had NOT killed some 266k. My apologies if you weren't disputing the CDC's reporting of the death toll.

That’s not misusing, that’s the truth.

Covid has killed around 10k people so far in the US, to put in perspective about 1,700 die on any given day from heart issues.

Now more have died from other things who ALSO had Covid, but that’s apples to oranges. .

Originally Posted by GordMay

The linked Ron Paul webcast was based on a Aug. 26, 2020, report from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, on COVID-19 deaths in the US, based on data from death certificates. The report did state that “For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death.”

However, this does not mean that “of the approximately165,000 ‘Covid deaths’ less than ten thousand died from Covid,” as the RonPaulInstitute.org claimed. The cause of death section on a death certificate, under CDC guidelines (last revised in 2003), contains two parts. Part I lists the chain of events that led directly to the death, including the underlying cause that initiated those events, while Part II contains other significant conditions that contributed to the death, but did not result in the underlying cause. In 92 percent of all deaths that mentioned COVID-19,that disease is listed as the underlying cause of death.

Dr. Anthony Fauci addressed this false claim, in an interview on ABC’s “Good Morning America”, in September 2020. The CDC data “does not mean that someone who has hypertension or diabetes, who dies of COVID didn't die of COVID-19. They did,” Fauci said. “So the numbers that you've been hearing, the 180,000-plus deaths, are real deaths from COVID-19. Let there not be any confusion about that.”

So, we have two Medical Doctors, disagreeing:

Dr. Ron Paul, the obstetrician turned Libertarian/Republication politician, who falsely promoted the anti-malaria drug hydroxychloroquine asa proven cure for COVID-19.

See “BigPharma, Government, and The Media Are Blocking Coronavirus Treatments. Why?” The Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity : Big Pharma, Government, and The Media Are Blocking Coronavirus Treatments. Why?


vs


Dr. Anthony Fauci, the physician and immunologist (for more than 50 years), who has served as the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) since 1984, and one of the world's leading experts on infectious diseases, whom The New Yorker and The New York Times described as one of the most trusted medical figures in the United States.
In a 2020 analysis of Google Scholar citations, Dr. Fauci ranked as the 32nd most-cited living researcher. According to the Web of Science, Dr. Fauci ranked 7th out of more than 1.8 million authors in the field of immunology by total citation count between 1980 and January 2020.
He also has received 45 honorary doctoral degrees from universities in the United States and abroad.
Dr. Fauci is a member of the National Academy of Sciences, the National Academy of Medicine, the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, and the American Philosophical Society, as well as other professional societies including the American College of Physicians, the American Society for Clinical Investigation, the Association of American Physicians, the Infectious Diseases Society of America, the American Association of Immunologists, and the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma & Immunology. He serves on the editorial boards of many scientific journals; as an editor of Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine; and as author, coauthor, or editor of more than 1,300 scientific publications, including several textbooks.
He helped pioneer the field of human immunoregulation by making important basic scientific observations that underpin the current understanding of the regulation of the human immune response. In addition, Dr. Fauci is widely recognized for delineating the precise ways that immunosuppressive agents modulate the human immune response. He developed effective therapies for formerly fatal inflammatory and immune-mediated diseases such as polyarteritis nodosa, granulomatosis with polyangiitis (formerly Wegener's granulomatosis), and lymphomatoid granulomatosis. A 1985 Stanford University Arthritis Center Survey of the American Rheumatism Association membership ranked Dr. Fauci’s work on the treatment of polyarteritis nodosa and granulomatosis with polyangiitis among the most important advances in patient management in rheumatology over the previous 20 years.

Same fauci who thought you could catch AIDs from routine close contact?

Who wants everyone to wear a mask, except for when he said people shouldnt wear masks, then they should and gets pictures of him at a public baseball game without a mask on? That muppet?

Fauci gains all his “credibility” from academia and government titles, he uses that like a bat to beat anyone who dare question him with.

Paul is all about if you feel you need a mask wear one, just don’t try to use force to make others do what you THINK is fact. Freedom be scary.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

So you’re going to try to use force to stop people from going to work, or buying food.

Nope. I'm in favour of allowing everyone to exercise their own personal freedom, and to make their own choices. You may choose to remain a Covid-19 vector, and I choose not to be exposed to you.

This is already pretty common in schools and workplaces. Kids without complete vaccines are barred from the classroom, especially in times of outbreaks. Employees who choose to not to be flu vaccinated can't go to some workplaces.

Until this pandemic is beaten to the ground, we are living in an outbreak. So those who choose to remain part of the problem are free to do so, but the rest of us are free to choose not to be exposed to you.

See how freedom works?

As for your constantly-repeated 1% dismissal, I've already said you are completely misguided on this. A 1% mortality rate is a HUGE risk by any standard. We routinely impose strict health, safety and environmental limits on risk far less than 1% mortality.

Would you take a pill with a 1% risk of death? Maybe you would, but most would not. So please, stop this ridiculous 1% statement. It does you no credit.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Nope. I'm in favour of allowing everyone to exercise their own personal freedom, and to make their own choices. You may choose to remain a Covid-19 vector, and I choose not to be exposed to you.

This is already pretty common in schools and workplaces. Kids without complete vaccines are barred from the classroom, especially in times of outbreaks. Employees who choose to not to be flu vaccinated can't go to some workplaces.

Until this pandemic is beaten to the ground, we are living in an outbreak. So those who choose to remain part of the problem are free to do so, but the rest of us are free to choose not to be exposed to you.

See how freedom works?

As for your constantly-repeated 1% dismissal, I've already said you are completely misguided on this. A 1% mortality rate is a HUGE risk by any standard. We routinely impose strict health, safety and environmental limits on risk far less than 1% mortality.

Would you take a pill with a 1% risk of death? Maybe you would, but most would not. So please, stop this ridiculous 1% statement. It does you no credit.

Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

Pretty close to the same thing. Sanctions can be crippling and cause a lot of deaths.

Classifying people as nutbars (Almond Joy?) because they don't trust the rushed research being done by convicted felon mega corporations and their revolving door with government agencies (such as FDA, and CDC) is a powerful tool right out of their psy-op playbook.

Yes... which is why a vaccine is so important. But a vaccine is not a cure. It's a firewall against the fire. If there are too many cracks in the firewall, it is ineffective. This is the problem with anti-vaxers.

And yes, I call them nutbars because most are not rationally assessing the risk of a rushed vaccine. They are spouting nonsense about how the population is being coerced into taking it. There is a strong overlap between irrational anti-vaxers and the same leading the anti-mask rallies.

I am wary of the process that has shaved years off the normal production of a vaccine. So I've taken a lot of time to follow the research and understand how this happened. It is a very impressive and unusual achievement, but it is also not unreasonable given the resources, and the fact that the SARS-CoV-2 virus comes from a well-researched and well understood line of corona viruses. It's not radically different.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

And yes, I call them nutbars because most are not rationally assessing the risk of a rushed vaccine. They are spouting nonsense about how the population is being coerced into taking it. There is a strong overlap between irrational anti-vaxers and the same leading the anti-mask rallies.

Let’s see, “...spouting nonsense about being coerced into taking it.” [a vaccine]

Maybe they got it here?


Hmmm, like mandatory seatbelt use? Maybe... but I doubt it. More likely there will be institutional restrictions and sanctions placed on the nutbars that insist on exercising their freedom not to be inoculated.

I'd not support mandatory vacinations, but I would support allowing society rit-large to exercise its freedom to protect the general populace. We could require proof of the appropriate inoculations for those who want to do things like go to work, or school, or Walmart or the like.

Rights come with responsibilities.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

I support everyone being free. You are free to not be vaccinated, and I am free not to be exposed to SARS-CoV-2 via you.

Society already imposes all sorts of these kinds of guardrails. You are free to drive your car, but you must be licensed, and you must obey the laws of the road. You are free to make a public offering on your corporation, but you must do so in adherence with disclosure and other securities demands.

You are free to avoid vaccination, but you are must then adhere to limits on where and how you interact with the rest of us.

Choices have consequences, and rights come with responsibilities.

[Dsanduril]

Well, this thread has devolved

Just curious, for all of those here who think that "society" shouldn't be able to dictate/direct/require/request mask wearing or vaccination (and/or some other behavior), how many of you carry an EPIRB and expect "society" to respond and save your behind when you set it off? Do you think it is reasonable by setting off your EPIRB to direct/request/require multiple members of society to risk their lives, along with the expenditure of a significant number of resources, to save yours?

I don't know about anyone else but I see a parallel between other members of society asking that I do something that may protect them, even if it may harm me, with me asking them to do something that may save me even though the effort may harm them regardless of whether or not it is successful. I have some personal concerns about vaccines that have been rushed through development and testing in a highly politicized environment (I hope we can all agree on that statement/fact) but I certainly won't be basing my decision on which, if any, vaccine to accept when asked to do so on the conjecture thrown about here on CF. And if, in the end, there is some risk to me (there will be) then that is part of the trade-off in return for expecting my rescue when I set off an EPIRB.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I support everyone being free. You are free to not be vaccinated, and I am free not to be exposed to SARS-CoV-2 via you.

Society already imposes all sorts of these kinds of guardrails. You are free to drive your car, but you must be licensed, and you must obey the laws of the road. You are free to make a public offering on your corporation, but you must do so in adherence with disclosure and other securities demands.

You are free to avoid vaccination, but you are must then adhere to limits on where and how you interact with the rest of us.

Choices have consequences, and rights come with responsibilities.

If you vaccination is effective you have nothing to worry about.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

If you vaccination is effective you have nothing to worry about.

No vaccine is 100% effective. So no, I do have something to worry about. But that's not the real point of the vaccine. Once again, it's not just about me. It's about everyone. This is the simple fact some people can't seem to understand.

The point is, as I said, to create a firebreak so as to halt the pandemic. It doesn't require a 100% vaccination rate, but every hole in the break means a reduced chance of stopping the pandemic.

This gets back to the free rider discussion we had earlier. Resilient Society can accommodate a certain number of free riders, but it just makes it harder for everyone else. This is why some schools and workplaces already place vaccination restrictions on people.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Same fauci who thought you could catch AIDs from routine close contact?

Citation please.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

No vaccine is 100% effective. So no, I do have something to worry about. But that's not the real point of the vaccine. Once again, it's not just about me. It's about everyone. This is the simple fact some people can't seem to understand.

The point is, as I said, to create a firebreak so as to halt the pandemic. It doesn't require a 100% vaccination rate, but every hole in the break means a reduced chance of stopping the pandemic.

This gets back to the free rider discussion we had earlier. Resilient Society can accommodate a certain number of free riders, but it just makes it harder for everyone else. This is why some schools and workplaces already place vaccination restrictions on people.

So, it’s a firebreak and you don’t need a 100% vaccination rate and yet you want to keep people who aren’t vaccinated from going to work and buying food.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

So, it’s a firebreak and you don’t need a 100% vaccination rate and yet you want to keep people who aren’t vaccinated from going to work and buying food.

I want people people to understand that rights come with responsibilities. If you want to live consequence-free, go move to a desert island. If you want to live in a community, then you must also accept that your choices come with consequences -- for you, and for others.

Sadly, too many people don't understand this simple fact. If everyone did, we wouldn't need all these legal guardrails that "freedom-lovers" complain about.