FACT vs OPINION

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I want people people to understand that rights come with responsibilities. If you want to live consequence-free, go move to a desert island. If you want to live in a community, then you must also accept that your choices come with consequences -- for you, and for others.

Sadly, too many people don't understand this simple fact. If everyone did, we wouldn't need all these legal guardrails that "freedom-lovers" complain about.

Bear with me. You’re almost there.

How does keeping people from going to work and the grocery store, when 100% compliance isn’t necessary, make people understand?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

That’s not misusing, that’s the truth.

Covid has killed around 10k people so far in the US, to put in perspective about 1,700 die on any given day from heart issues.

Now more have died from other things who ALSO had Covid, but that’s apples to oranges.

COVID-19 has killed north of 266k Americans. And it isn't done yet.

Ignorance be scary.

[Thumbs Up]

We don't actually get to follow and understand. Yes it is promising and impressive new technology. No one has been able to convince me that this virus wasn't created in a lab and released on purpose. Nor that it is not part of some nefarious plot. Nor that big pharma doesn't have a hand in it. A false flag, (not a hoax). My question is still: Why?. If you truly take a close look at the worlds vaccination programs, you will see that the science surrounding it was never settled. The propaganda surrounding it is what settled it. That is why people feel so strongly about it. Nobody likes to be told that they were brainwashed. I am not saying that all vaccines are bad. But we have been lied to and deceived every step of the way. We still are. The powers that be in this world are big and bad. They don't care about us. It is grim. I wish that I didn't feel that way. The reason Americans think they are so polarized is by design. You think the two sides are much different? I don't. Nobody seems to know how to think for themselves. A healthy dose of skepticism is good medicine. There is some serious evil going down in the world and it is not because of skeptics like me. You guys want to debate the truth? Bring it on. Change my mind. I doubt I will change anyone here's point of view but no name calling please. People are supposedly entitled to their opinions. At least I try to provide some food for thought. People used to say I was nuts because I wouldn't touch the doorknob to a public bathroom. Go figure.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

Bear with me. You’re almost there.

How does keeping people from going to work and the grocery store, when 100% compliance isn’t necessary, make people understand?

No one can "make" someone understand. This is about making those who choose to put others at risk, bear the consequences of those choices. Just like if you choose to run a red light, the consequences are (hopefully) a good ticket. And continual infractions remove your ability to drive, and perhaps land you in jail.

Now stick with me, you're almost there ...

Guardrails aren't about you, they're about us.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

COVID-19 has killed north of 266k Americans. And it isn't done yet.

Ignorance be scary.

Actually covid needed a few more co-morbidities to help with those numbers.

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

They are spouting nonsense about how the population is being coerced into taking it. There is a strong overlap between irrational anti-vaxers and the same leading the anti-mask rallies.
.

How is it nonsense when you just said you’d try to dox/cancel/use force to stop me from getting food or going to work?

Also I have shots for things most people have never thought of getting shots for, I also don’t get the flu shot or take malaria pills while I was in Africa, because I can weigh risks, some shots make sense for me, others don’t.

If the covid shot and fashions masks work, you do that, and it be rest of us will just die off and you’ll have your “expert” utopia. Seems like a win win.

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

No vaccine is 100% effective. So no, I do have something to worry about. But that's not the real point of the vaccine. Once again, it's not just about me. It's about everyone. This is the simple fact some people can't seem to understand.

The point is, as I said, to create a firebreak so as to halt the pandemic. It doesn't require a 100% vaccination rate, but every hole in the break means a reduced chance of stopping the pandemic.

This gets back to the free rider discussion we had earlier. Resilient Society can accommodate a certain number of free riders, but it just makes it harder for everyone else. This is why some schools and workplaces already place vaccination restrictions on people.

So I’m starting to think covid might not be the illness that should concern you.

Honestly, if you’re THAT scared of such remote possibilities, you should talk to someone about that.

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-a-phobia-2795454

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

We don't actually get to follow and understand. Yes it is promising and impressive new technology. No one has been able to convince me that this virus wasn't created in a lab and released on purpose. Nor that it is not part of some nefarious plot. Nor that big pharma doesn't have a hand in it. A false flag, (not a hoax).

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. How about some citations from credible sources for all these incredible claims.

I too am very concerned about "the powers that be." I have railed against the dangers of big government and big corporations, and am especially concerned about the lessons being learned in this pandemic.

But if you're going to claim some global conspiratorial cabal then you need to provide significant and credible evidence. My view is you don't need any such fiction to explain the actions of power. In fact, painting it in some sort of James Bondish way diminishes the danger. There isn't one Dr. Evil at the top. It's systemic.

Mostly it comes back to us.

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by jackdale

Citation please.

Dr. Fauci
AIDS might be transmissible by “routine close contact.”
May 5, 1983, issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

No one can "make" someone understand. This is about making those who choose to put others at risk, bear the consequences of those choices. Just like if you choose to run a red light, the consequences are (hopefully) a good ticket. And continual infractions remove your ability to drive, and perhaps land you in jail.

Now stick with me, you're almost there ...

Guardrails aren't about you, they're about us.

I see I hurt your feelings.

Since you don’t need 100% compliance can I be one of the non-compliant?

It’s not that I’m an anti-vaxer, or that I wouldn’t get this particular vaccine, but I just want to see if there’re side effects before I’ll jump in.

And can I go to the grocery store please?

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Dr. Fauci
AIDS might be transmissible by “routine close contact.”
May 5, 1983, issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association

What Fauci really said

Researchers believe sexual contact and blood transfusions can spread the ailment. But if ''nonsexual, non-blood-borne transmission is possible, the scope of the syndrome may be enormous,'' writes Dr. Fauci of the National Institutes of Health in an editorial to be published Friday in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

Big "if"; he was responding to a study of which he was not a part.

https://www.nytimes.com/1983/05/06/u...ting-aids.html

What gives with the attempts to demonize Fauci?

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Dr. Fauci
AIDS might be transmissible by “routine close contact.”
May 5, 1983, issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association

Love it!

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

Actually covid needed a few more co-morbidities to help with those numbers.

High blood pressure should not be a death sentence.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by jackdale

High blood pressure should not be a death sentence.

That’s it?

You need to throw in 1.6 more co-morbitities.

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by jackdale

What Fauci really said



Big "if"; he was responding to a study of which he was not a part.

https://www.nytimes.com/1983/05/06/u...ting-aids.html

What gives with the attempts to demonize Fauci?

Aside from being a hypocrite, having a career that involved more politics than patients,
or
Because he’s destroying lives over a virus with a sub 1% death rate.

Originally Posted by jackdale

High blood pressure should not be a death sentence.

Poor lifestyle choices have consequences

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

That’s it?

You need to throw in 1.6 more co-morbitities.

And that too

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

I see I hurt your feelings.

Since you don’t need 100% compliance can I be one of the non-compliant?

It’s not that I’m an anti-vaxer, or that I wouldn’t get this particular vaccine, but I just want to see if there’re side effects before I’ll jump in.

And can I go to the grocery store please?

Sure, if you don't mind being a free rider that the rest of us carry. Who else gets to have this privileged position? I guess Sue. How many more would you like to add?

Vaccines work by stimulating herd immunity. If too few of the herd are vaccinated it doesn't work for anyone, just like if there are too many breaks in the firewall.

That's what you folks don't seem to get. It's not (only) about you. It's about all of us. This notion of collective action seems anathema to some of you.

This is why I speculate that societies which have a hard time acting together are the ones which will, and are, suffering the most from this pandemic. And they will continue to suffer, even as a vaccine is rolled out.

I dearly hope (and wish) that draconian measures need not be taken to get people to do what is right for their neighbours. But sadly there are always people who think their needs are above the group -- are above the law. This is unfortunately why we need police. If everyone understood that rights come with responsibilities, then we wouldn't need them. But that's not the world we live in.