FACT vs OPINION

[Luv2Sail2020]

Originally Posted by Gingersnap

What does this topic have to do with the boat? Don’t we have enough to do on our boat? Go and enjoy sailing ⛵️

Only thing it has to do with a boat is the fact the pandemic has thrown a monkey wrench into our lives. And to different degrees depending on how much you let it. People like to debate stuff or just argue I guess. As with every single forum on the internet and threads on those forums, you are not required to click on them, nor read them. Look away. This is the COVID-19 area. I for one find it amusing and a little enlightening by a few posting. Mostly amusing.

[hpaabor]

Wow! This is a change from which anchor is best. I have not read all the responses but felt like butting in anyway. More than a half century ago I was taught that the purpose of education was to provide the means of separating knowledge from belief. Implied was that knowledge was better. As a society (then) we were progressing and that progress was driven by replacing beliefs and superstitions with knowledge. The evidence of that progress was more stuff (standard of living) and more "productive" occupations. In my view of things, that started to change in the mid 70's and early 80's. A we are all in the same boat mentality seemed to be replaced by a lifeboat mentality. You're in the boat or not. Knowledge did not matter as much. I went to work in government and learned of what I would call pre Trumian ideology which was quite bizarre for a simple nerd like me - Perception is reality. Facts don't matter. Its what we say we believe that matters. It is surprisingly powerful stuff and as Trump has demonstrated can push facts and science to the curb. I guess you can call it opinion (usually agreeable and self serving opinion) overtaking facts. I think its hugely dangerous for humanity given all the calamity that can be attributed to various beliefs and isms. Not sure how we get people to turn away from magic thinking and come to value facts and knowledge more highly, but I think the long term survival of our species just might depend on it.

[walkabout08]

Wow, 27 pages. Anyone up for a shot of bleach?

[jplello]

Truth is subjective, results from individual human experience. It is equivalent to Opinion.
Fact is something that was scientifically demonstrated. In this discussion it should be replaced by Reality. Reality is broader than Fact, it also covers what is Perceived.
The discussion should be Opinion vs Reality.
For example, there are 250 thousand plus deaths from Covid in the US and doctors say mask usage is essential to fight the virus. Part of it is fact, part is statements, perception. It's Real.
If I think masks are not important, it is my Opinion and my Truth.
Everybody is entitled to his or her opinion, as is entitled to his or her liberty, as long as the exercise of either does not endanger or limit other people's safety or liberty.
This is why masks and other safety practices should be mandatory. They are in many European countries, in specific circumstances.

[SV__Grace]

Very interesting discussion, but academic unless we apply this to boats and this forum, so allow me to chime in-

FACTS- there are a lot of "facts" related to boats and boating, what makes it interesting is that not all provable facts apply all the time to all boats and boaters.

OPINIONS- every member of this forum has opinions based upon their own experiences, and I appreciate their willingness to share them, but some are informed and some not, some are ego centered and some not:

- Informed Opinions- based upon years of exprerience and observation with multiple boats and many different conditions. I love the informed opinions on this forum.

- Uninformed Opinions- based upon limited experience but generalized to be true for all or most. It's both funny and annoying how many uninformed opinions are on this forum, but mostly I feel sorry for folks that don't realize how uninformed they are, especially when it's me!

- Ego centered opinions are the most annoying as they are usually uninformed and the attitude is that "because I believe this you should too." If you impose your strong belief on others it would be nice for you to base it on a highly informed opinion backed up with years and years of experience and observation on multiple boats in many conditions, otherwise, SHUT UP!

- Other centered opinions are when you make the effort to consider the OP's specific boat and situation and respond in a way intended to be helpful to them, not just spout what you believe. I try to do this all the time.

[Gingersnap]

Got it. We are coming off of a really nasty flu, in spite our flu shot in September. You know the works: high fevers over 100, heavy dry cough, body aches, loss of appetite for last six days.

If you say you had a fever, bam you’re required to have a covid test. It is a shame California did not invest in “rapid testing” where the result takes five minutes to see if we have the big C.

Instead we have to quarantine for 3 more days before we find out the test result. Thankfully our kind neighbor threw our mail and store items into our boat for our secret pickup. If positive, we have to quarantine for another 14 days (symptoms or no symptoms). If negative, we get to come out of our cage.

The main thing is we are recovering nicely by ourselves because we lock ourselves in. We learned about zinc quercetin where it opens the vessels and absorb the zinc better. It is the next best thing to hydroxychloroquine. Of course, soup, Tylenol, DayQuil, and whatever. It might be with having onboard.

It is a shame to see communities and businesses go into lockdown for a virus that has 98-99% recovery rate. Economy suffers.

Click on Gavin.Newsom’s advice and read many more comments for more insights into people’s lives.

https://mobile.twitter.com/GavinNews...09638218600448

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by GordMay

If so, then you should be easily able to refute their verdict, using their narrative (description).
As with most of your assertions, you fail to argue your claims, either through fact or reasoning.

Per the original thesis, this qualifies your statements as unsubstantiated opinion.

Sure, here’s a whole article on some rape stuff in Germany, even written by a Canadian.

https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/sn...ails-miserably

I haven’t bookmarked every BS snopes opinion I’ve seen, but there have been more than a few.

Not that it matters, I liked to obvious BS ballots from a gov site and that just got ignored, or folks were like “it’s too much work” to check out the site for themselves.

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by Gingersnap

If you say you had a fever, bam you’re required to have a covid test. It is a shame California did not invest in “rapid testing” where the result takes five minutes to see if we have the big C.

Then again, some "rapid tests" are not so accurate:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...mes-in-england

[beerster69]

Originally Posted by Yihang

Truth is different from Fact though. Basically truth can be manipulated.

What we are usually discussing is usually truth not fact. Facts are often not helpful without interpretation unfortunately.



With covid for example we know very little if any facts, but everything each of us experience is true, to us. But when we present our truth it's always our representation of it.

Actually, the scientific and medical community know a lot about Covid. They just don't know everything about it. Knowledge of viruses has been expanding rapidly since 1918. Virus investigation has been turbocharged since HIV and Ebola. Just because we don't know every detail about this virus doesn't negate what we know. We definitely know it is highly contagious, and lethal to many of us. There is plenty of evidence to support these two claims.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Not that it matters, I liked to obvious BS ballots from a gov site and that just got ignored, or folks were like “it’s too much work” to check out the site for themselves.

Inconclusive sample, too few to matter, suspect provenance, dead link. That's what you provided. Pardon us for being less than convinced.

But congrats for finding election wrongdoing where even a Trump-friendly DoJ couldn't.

[aajora]

cool! all this info on this thread is going to really help me get my boat back into the water!!!

thanks for all your opinions on completely irrelevant information... so many smart people..

[Gingersnap]

Yeah. Our lab precautioned us ahead of time that the three day test will give us false positives or false negatives. Lol! All I know is we are getting better.

[scareygary]

I worked in the world of literature....well, what literature does at night: the Theatre. I was trained up in the 60s and 70s, in what I would call the age of Modernity. Books and plays, I was taught, had THEMES or 'points to make', and my job as director was to try to 'reinforce' the theme in the choices I made. Now, when we are in the age of what is usually called 'post-modern', the belief is that there ARE no 'themes' and that every person is free to 'interpret' or take from literature what he or she wants. I've seen very muddled productions at professional theatres like The Oregon Shakespeare Festival, and then sat in workshops with directors. I've asked, "So what do you think was the 'theme' or 'point' of this play?" I heard, on several occasions, "Oh, there IS no 'theme; I just 'tell the story" and let each person take from it what he or she will." I say....if I'm going to tell you a 2 hour tale, I sure as hell should know the POINT of the story! I think this 'everyone's opinion is equal' stuff is absolute nonsense, and why meaningful debate on issues is so nearly impossible.....

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by GordMay

FACT vs OPINION, Belief, or Prejudice.

People think that I'm stupid, because I ask them for money, in exchange of politically incorrect opinions.
Well, I beg to differ.

An opinion, without substantiating evidence, is mere conjecture, or speculation.
When forming personal convictions, we often interpret factual evidence, through the filter of our values, feelings, tastes, and past experiences. Hence, most statements we make in speaking and writing are assertions of fact, opinion, belief, or prejudice.

We value the right to believe what we think is right, and to express our opinions accordingly.
What is not true, however, is that an opinion is a fact. Alarmingly, most people believe that their opinions are facts.
Wrong.
The truth is, that a fact is a statement, that can be supported to be true or false, by data or evidence.
Indeed, many of our opinions are based on emotions, personal history, and values; all of which can be completely unsupported by meaningful evidence.
The naked truth is this:
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But not all opinions are equally valuable.

It takes more information, to make us believe something we don't want to believe, than something we do (cognitive bias & motivated reasoning).
If someone firmly believes some fact to be true, that I just as firmly believe to be false, it is hard for either of us not to see that other person as stupid, disingenuous, both, or worse.
Sometimes, expertise/knowledge/intelligence even magnifies the tendency to engage in politically motivated reasoning. It's almost as though a sophisticated approach to science, gives people more tools, to curate their own sense of reality.

Given our varying cognitive biases, we have to ask ourselves:
not
“Why do they disagree with the science?'
but rather
“Why do they want to disagree with the science?”

A license to ignore reality is a dangerous path to travel, regardless of our political leanings. If facts are somehow devalued, as a currency, it'll be a lot harder to achieve our common goals.
Factual evidence should always trump opinion, belief, or prejudice, in prioritizing the information, that is used to guide policy.

Two writers, who might disagree on many subjects, share a disdainful scorn for Opinions Without Evidence:

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence." ~ Christopher Hitchens (Hitchen’s razor)

“Do you know what we call opinion in the absence of evidence? We call it prejudice.” ~ Michael Crichton

Problem is, many believe their opinion..is fact and will refuse to listen to anything otherwise. Many studies have proven that theory.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by GordMay

As a leftist, I believe that reality is mostly left biased.
At least, that's my opinion (unsubstantiated HERE).

Left..............truth/reality..................Right

Wherever you stand, the truth/reality is always in the other guy's direction (at least most of the time) whether you like it or not...at least if we are to use left/right terms. So maybe such terms are inadequate?