New study of jabbed in the journal "Circulation"

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

Mike, make your life easy and put people on ignore. Makes my reading easier. Odd thing, I have a half dozen here on ignore, which is double all other forums combined. Seems we do have some real loons here.

Good advice TP. If I were smarter, I'd take it. I actually have no one on my ignore list, although I do ignore some posters. My personal conceit is that I have the emotional fortitude to do this myself. I guess recent events here on this thread suggest otherwise .

I really do find that CF attracts a lot, as you call them, "loons." This seems to be a relatively recent development. I continue to wonder why.

Originally Posted by sagablu

There is a super simple solution to all of this rhetoric, nonsense, and people willfully dragging down the economy and the medical system with their ridiculous conclusions and deluded belief that they actually understand what they are speaking of. Here you go guys, enjoy

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronav...care%20system.

I can certainly see the attractiveness, and the sense of going this route. But I feel like this is too slippery a slope. Besides, there are still many in the unvaccinated community who are honestly hesitant.

Either through historic injustices that have led to justified suspicion of authority, or marginalized communities who have a hard time accessing services, or simply by being duped by all the disinformation... there are still unvaccinated people who need support, not threats.

It's true, I have little sympathy for the much smaller group of true anti-vaxxers, and even less for the purveyors of disinformation, but nor do I wish them ill or want to see them suffer. I mostly feel sorry for them. Besides, there are always individuals who put their own self-interests above everyone else's. We are still wealthy enough to carry these free-riders. I'd rather do that, than risk sliding down the slope.

[DomShangPen]

Hey Mike why are you putting so much time and energy on this covid plandemic thing ?
It looks very weird to me unless maybe you have some financial interest in it !
I mean not long ago you were complaining about not being financially able to move your boat from one place to another but you have all this time and energy to argue here about a world ending plandemic ( hehehe) . Are you on the books of big pharmaceutical companies ?
If it’s not the case I apologize and I suggest that maybe you should spend your energies on looking for work . That is if you ever want to move that boat again hehehe. The aggressiveness of your postings is suspicious.

[Shanachie]

Well, DomShangPen, you have three posts. All on covid. And all ignorant. Can you spell troll?


Please tell us your strategy for flying a spinnaker in strong winds. Can you tell us the disadvantages of a ketch rig? What are the differences between a Dutchman system and lazy jacks?


Tell us what anchor you prefer and why? What's your opinion on lithium vs. flooded lead acid batteries? How do you heave to? What bottom paint do you favor?


Please take your ignorance elsewhere. You are not a sailor. Go to Twitter or Facebook or Fox News or some other place where your people lurk. You're not welcome here.

[davil]

[QUOTE=Mike OReilly;3529109]Thanks Davil,

================
take care

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by Shanachie

Well, DomShangPen, you have three posts. All on covid. And all ignorant. Can you spell troll?


Please tell us your strategy for flying a spinnaker in strong winds. Can you tell us the disadvantages of a ketch rig? What are the differences between a Dutchman system and lazy jacks?


Tell us what anchor you prefer and why? What's your opinion on lithium vs. flooded lead acid batteries? How do you heave to? What bottom paint do you favor?


Please take your ignorance elsewhere. You are not a sailor. Go to Twitter or Facebook or Fox News or some other place where your people lurk. You're not welcome here.

[emoji106]

[Nord Sal]

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

Most who are opposed to this shot argue that the shot is not needed and have concerns about its safety.

Many people, including a lot of doctors and scientists, have legitimate concerns about this mRNA shot. It is not a vaccine since it does not and was not designed to prevent the acquisition nor spread of the virus. It was however designed to mitigate the symptoms. For this reason, there may be value for those at risk to get it. For the general population there is little need since the risks are extremely low. The reality is that each person needs to decide for themselves whether the risks outweigh the touted benefits of the shot.

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

. . . someone who does not take the shot is not putting society at risk. Natural immunity is many, many times more effective than the shot. Also, and more importantly, since the shot does not prevent acquisition nor spreading, not getting the shot is putting no one at risk.
. . .

I agree with everything you stated above. I think that it's unfortunate that reasonable and polite voices like you left.

I think your point that the vaccines may be beneficial to some, while unnecessary for others is at the heart of the debate.

I also agree natural immunity works and should be considered in public health policy.

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I had a talk with a practicing internist friend about covid. He is still treating covid patients He was not happy with the CDC, which prevents him from discussing natural immunity with patients.

I asked him what he would do if he was in charge of combating covid. His answer was he would do everything he could to get more people vaccinated

It's outrageous that physicians cannot discuss natural immunity with their patients who have had and recovered from Covid-19.

Keeping this basic biological concept off the table just plain smells bad to many people. I think doing this can cause people that might benefit from the shots, to avoid them because they also think it doesn't pass the smell test and wonder why its off the table for those that have recovered. This isn't saying I'm against vaccination. I agree with ArmyDaveNY that vaccination may be right for some, mostly the aged and immune-compromised populations, and people should be free to choose.

Originally Posted by Stephen_MO

policy that doesn't even attempt to seriously factor in the MAIN defense humanity has (namely natural immunity) as a core component public health management is not a serious or good-faith attempt.

Your post was excellent throughout and made several good points. I apologize for not including it all, but I wanted to highlight this point.

Not including natural immunity acquired from having been and recovered from a Covid-19 infection in public health policy is tantamount to rejecting science and also history. The Spanish flu pandemic is a noteworthy and relatively recent example in a historical context. There's no vaccine for that virus, and we're still subjected to its variants. No one's screaming for vaccines for it or its variants.

I'd like to reiterate that this is not a binary issue. Vaccines are available for those that can benefit the most from them. You mentioned that you've been vaccinated. I think that gives credence to your opinions about natural immunity and that other options should be available.

Originally Posted by danstanford

There is no doubt in my mind that controlling who has the right to disseminate their opinion is morally wrong and certainly not the job of the operators of discussion forums.

I learn often from disagreement and I have seen the destructive force of confirmation bias brought on by the internet and social media. We are smart enough to discern between accredited sources and made up facts and if we cannot we dig deeper.

If there has been any strong force present in the Covid information realm it has been the control of what is presented in the media. In Canada, our government and media bellow loudly that we should listen to the science until they disagree with the Science Council's conclusion on Astra Zeneca whereupon they call the presentation of the Science Council to be irresponsible. This is the fuel for all kinds of conspiracy theories and it accomplished little.

Put all the 'facts' on the table and let the cream rise to the top.

I agree with eveything you wrote above. Censoring information leads to mistrust and rightly so. The scientific method needs an honest debate on all available facts. It requires scrutiny and criticism to evolve and improve to its fullest potential. Shielding scientific work from scrutinty criticism by censoring dissenting opinions is not science, it's politics.

There are indeed crackpots out there as there always has been and always will be. Crackpots will self destruct or fade away if subjected to scientific scrutiny. Censorship actually empowers crackpots by clearly showing reasonable people that the authorities doing the censoring are hiding things and protecting their narrative from critcism. When it occurs, it's reasonable to ask why and to be skeptical of the underlying motives. The cream does indeed rise to the top if it is not constrained.

[mat jam]

Here is a doctor in Canada talking about all the still births across the country after the shot,

https://rense.com/general96/vbc.mp4

You guys think you talk a good game and always go on and on 'it's about the science' yet offer nothing but mainstream org/news that are culpable in all this. If you are profiting from this disaster i hope it is worth it. Karma can be a bitch.

When all else fails, attack and scream without providng any supporting evidence only feel good words with support from fellow tribesmen (kudos for the term...) and then scream troll which is like screaming mommy!

How many opposing members here have been reported to the authorities? And in response told to go pound sand? You think we will not find out?

[sailingabe41ds]

They knew this over 20 years ago in animal studies plus alot more. Ever wonder why mrna vaccines were never created all this time when they had the technology to do it? No safety studies were done before thel releasing the vaccine...that is why it was experimental and pharma has full legal immunity before selling it to any country. Funny....we are hated pharma few years ago...now we blindly trust them. Look at VAERS reporting for more information on the vaccine adverse affects.

Abe

[sagablu]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Good advice TP. If I were smarter, I'd take it. I actually have no one on my ignore list, although I do ignore some posters. My personal conceit is that I have the emotional fortitude to do this myself. I guess recent events here on this thread suggest otherwise .

I really do find that CF attracts a lot, as you call them, "loons." This seems to be a relatively recent development. I continue to wonder why.



I can certainly see the attractiveness, and the sense of going this route. But I feel like this is too slippery a slope. Besides, there are still many in the unvaccinated community who are honestly hesitant.

Either through historic injustices that have led to justified suspicion of authority, or marginalized communities who have a hard time accessing services, or simply by being duped by all the disinformation... there are still unvaccinated people who need support, not threats.

It's true, I have little sympathy for the much smaller group of true anti-vaxxers, and even less for the purveyors of disinformation, but nor do I wish them ill or want to see them suffer. I mostly feel sorry for them. Besides, there are always individuals who put their own self-interests above everyone else's. We are still wealthy enough to carry these free-riders. I'd rather do that, than risk sliding down the slope.

Noble of you too care about the anti-vaxxers and there health outcomes. Do they care about you and all others? Have those who promote and have received the vaccine been the subject of threats and insults? Do the anti-vaxxers have any hesitation about overwhelming the medical system and having cared delayed or denied for those who are in need through no fault of their own? Do they care that they have burnt out so many nurses and doctors that many hospitals now have a shortage of vital services? When they actually care about others, then I will care. I keep hearing the word freedom, freedom to make that choices, but everyone else has no freedom to avoid the consequences of their poor choices. Freedom has or at least should have responsibility.

[Mike OReilly]

Canadian doctors can certainly discuss the idea of natural immunity. Hopefully, most will dissuade their patients from pursing this dangerous strategy. It certainly produces some level of immunity to the virus, but it leaves a lot more death and extended morbidity in its wake.

This is the whole purpose of the vaccines; to avoid all the mortality and morbidity.

[Tetepare]

I just put another one on ignore. Go ahead Mike, do it.


I'm not sold on herd immunity. It hasn't worked for the common cold, why would it work for a mutating COVID? School me.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by sagablu

Noble of you too care about the anti-vaxxers and there health outcomes. Do they care about you and all others? Have those who promote and have received the vaccine been the subject of threats and insults? Do the anti-vaxxers have any hesitation about overwhelming the medical system and having cared delayed or denied for those who are in need through no fault of their own? Do they care that they have burnt out so many nurses and doctors that many hospitals now have a shortage of vital services? When they actually care about others, then I will care. I keep hearing the word freedom, freedom to make that choices, but everyone else has no freedom to avoid the consequences of their poor choices. Freedom has or at least should have responsibility.

I fully understand your frustration, and I think you know what my answer will be...

Obviously these true anti-vaxxers don't care about others, or rather, they put their own interests way above everyone else. And those who threaten healthcare workers, or obstruct people from getting medical services are the lowest form of thug.

I've said many times, I do not support mandatory vaccination. I believe it is everyone's right to refuse medical interventions. BUT, I also strongly believe that choices come with consequences, and the rest of society also has rights; in this case the right NOT to be unduly exposed to people who purposely chose the so-called natural-immunity option.

Every province (including Alberta) has instituted some form of vaccine passport to access non-essential services. And this includes travel by plane, train and some ferries. International travel is also severely curtailed for these folks, so they face significant consequences, as they should.

My hesitancy to put up healthcare barriers to people who make poor choices is not really noble. It's recognizing that we all make poor choices sometimes. And who's to say society wouldn't decide that people sailing off on small boats is one of those poor choices, and therefore shouldn't be allowed access to health services should things go wrong.

[Nord Sal]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Canadian doctors can certainly discuss the idea of natural immunity.

Does Canada include natural immunity, obtained by having had and recovering from Covid-19, as a legitimate defense against rebecoming reinfected and spreading Covid-19?

Antibody tests are readily available.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Nord Sal

Does Canada include natural immunity, obtained by having had and recovering from Covid-19, as a legitimate defense against rebecoming reinfected and spreading Covid-19?

Antibody tests are readily available.

Not that I'm aware of. I think some private organizations with vaccine mandates are accepting this in Canada.

I'm on record stating that I am in favour of recognizing previous (confirmed) exposure, i.e. "natural immunity," as sufficient proof of protection. I would like to see our provincial passport systems included this.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by DomShangPen

Hey Mike why are you putting so much time and energy on this covid plandemic thing ?
It looks very weird to me unless maybe you have some financial interest in it !
I mean not long ago you were complaining about not being financially able to move your boat from one place to another but you have all this time and energy to argue here about a world ending plandemic ( hehehe) . Are you on the books of big pharmaceutical companies ?
If it’s not the case I apologize and I suggest that maybe you should spend your energies on looking for work . That is if you ever want to move that boat again hehehe. The aggressiveness of your postings is suspicious.

Not cool Dom, Mike does not deserve personal attacks like this. If your belief structure is predicated on people needing to be compensated prior to acting in ways they feel is responsible you should examine it.