New study of jabbed in the journal "Circulation"

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I get my medical information ONLY from reliable internet sources!!!

If they don't say what I want to read, I just look for a different internet page or for a boating related forum.

Once I find the one I like I spread the find around for others.

[Joefiss]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I get my medical information ONLY from reliable internet sources!!!

If they don't say what I want to read, I just look for a different internet page or for a boating related forum.

Once I find the one I like I spread the find around for others.

Confirmation bias. The heart of every search engine on the interweb. Now about the flat earth thing and the faked moon landings.

[sagablu]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

I had my jab and then a booster last week. I'm shedding like crazy and making everyone sterile. I think Bill Gates is tracking me too.

I'm with you there. Specifically requested the 5G booster shot, I wanted to be my own hotspot but it didn't work! I further requested that my girlfriend get the Bill Gates tracking shot so I can see what she Is it any moment, but I can't get the app to work. So I'm with the anti-vaxxers, clearly the vaccines are not doing the job.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by SeanPatrick

No, what I'm griping about is intellectual honesty.

Most of your yin-yang examples are overstated or over-simplified. Some I didn't hear, or heard differently. Maybe you did that for effect, or that's your actual recollection.

Like Mike said, it sounds like your overall complaint is that you didn't get solid unambiguous information soon enough. Well, join the club.

And now we appear to have people suggesting that anyone who is even remotely skeptical about this particular set of vaccines' efficacy for themselves should be silenced. Because that is always the next step toward totalitar ... um, I mean "the truth". Yeah, that's it.

if you're not a doctor or a virologist, then no you very likely don't have the background to decide the vaccines' efficacy for yourself. All of the unvaccinated people currently in hospital for COVID chose wrong, didn't they?

But you're missing the main point of the vaccines. The main point is to STOP THE PANDEMIC. We can do that like China in spring 2020: absolute shutdown, weld your apartment doors shut, imprison violators... that works. Or we can immunize everyone, which reduces the chances of anyone getting and spreading COVID, reduces the severity and duration if they do, and is our best shot at having an almost normal level of economic activity, and an actual life... Which would you choose?

[Nord Sal]

Originally Posted by SeanPatrick

No, what I'm griping about is intellectual honesty.

Indeed. The increasing censorship is perhaps the clearest example that intellectual honesty is under attack.


We're in two pandemics, one from a virus and the other from authoritarianism.

[Rotan]

8 pages.... wow.

Whats the current worldwide death toll from/with Covid? 5m?

Thats what it took to get the world to pay attention to the topic of vaccination and for ordinalry people to actually read studies.

I gave up arguing about this topic becuase we just dont have enough answers from the largest drug trial in human history, and the data we do have is totally unreliable on both sides of the fence.

My guess is its going to take another 5yrs and millions more deaths for the world to recognize that all drugs have side effects and the word "vaccine" was just marketing god send for the big Pharam.

With that said. Ill just leave this here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...al_settlements


GlaxoSmithKline $3 billion ($1B criminal, $2B civil) Criminal: Off-label promotion, failure to disclose safety data.
Civil: paying kickbacks to physicians, making false and misleading statements concerning the safety of Avandia, reporting false best prices and underpaying rebates owed under the Medicaid Drug Rebate Program
Avandia (not providing safety data)...

2009 Pfizer $2.3 billion Off-label promotion, kickbacks Bextra, Geodon, Zyvox, Lyrica False Claims Act, FDCA

2013 Johnson & Johnson $2.2 billion Off-label promotion, kickbacks Risperdal, Invega, Nesiritide False Claims Act....

2012 Abbott Laboratories $1.5 billion Off-label promotion Depakote False Claims Act, FDCA

2009 Eli Lilly $1.4 billion Off-label promotion Zyprexa False Claims Act, FDCA

2001 TAP Pharmaceutical Products $875 million Medicare fraud, kickbacks Lupron False Claims Act, Prescription Drug Marketing Act

2012 Amgen $762 million Off-label promotion, kickbacks Aranesp False Claims Act, FDCA

2010 GlaxoSmithKline $750 million Poor manufacturing practices Kytril, Bactroban, Paxil CR, Avandamet False Claims Act, FDCA

2005 Serono $704 million Off-label promotion, kickbacks, monopolistic practices Serostim False Claims Act

2008 Merck $650 million Medicare fraud, kickbacks Zocor, Vioxx, Pepsid False Claims Act, Medicaid Rebate Statute

2007 Purdue Pharma $601 million Off-label promotion Oxycontin False Claims Act

2010 Allergan $600 million Off-label promotion Botox False Claims Act, FDCA

2010 AstraZeneca $520 million Off-label promotion, kickbacks Seroquel False Claims Act

2007 Bristol-Myers Squibb $515 million Off-label promotion, kickbacks, Medicare fraud Abilify, Serzone False Claims Act, FDCA

2002 Schering-Plough $500 million Poor manufacturing practices Claritin FDA Current Good Manufacturing Practices

2006 Mylan $465 million Misclassification under the Medicaid Drug Rebate Program EpiPen (epinephrine) False Claims Act

2006 Schering-Plough $435 million Off-label promotion, kickbacks, Medicare fraud Temodar, Intron A, K-Dur, Claritin RediTabs False Claims Act, FDCA

2004 Pfizer $430 million Off-label promotion Neurontin False Claims Act, FDCA

2008 Cephalon $425 million Off-label promotion[23] Actiq, Gabitril, Provigil False Claims Act, FDCA

2010 Novartis $423 million Off-label promotion, kickbacks Trileptal False Claims Act, FDCA

2003 AstraZeneca $355 million Medicare fraud Zoladex Prescription Drug Marketing Act

2004 Schering-Plough $345 million Medicare fraud, kickbacks Claritin



and you believe a single word from this bunch of crooks?

[Joefiss]

What I find most curious among the anti vaccination crowd is they have never stated their concern for the welfare of humanity as a reason to not get vaccinated. There has been plenty of name calling, hysteria about some secret cabal bent on world domination, big pharma profit promotion and a host of other reasons supported only by anecdotal "evidence" that has not been independently reviewed. I can't seem to come up with a reason for so many unsubstantiated claims. In the information age and an age of immediate celebrity how such a global conspiracy could remain covert is beyond my comprehension.

[SeanPatrick]

See, this is exactly what I was talking about. We all have access to the same information. None of you know any more about this virus than I do. Yet here we have multiple people who confidently feel the need to "explain" to me what science is and [astonishingly] what I actually meant by my own post. It's condescending, frankly.

I [and others] have already posted links to some of the statements above. Again, the same information is available to all of us. You can find them too, if you simply bother to look. But then you might have to admit that some of the information you're being fed is wrong. And then you'd have to admit that you repeated incorrect information. And people don't like to admit that. It's like those people who have been scammed but refuse to admit it at all costs for fear that they will look foolish.

I am indeed not a doctor or virologist. And I would wager that neither are most other people here. But, again, even if I were that doesn't mean that I could not be wrong. Just as not being one doesn't mean I can't be right. That's why the argument from authority that I referred to is not a valid argument - no matter how many times you repeat it. But it doesn't even matter because the truth is that I don't know. And more importantly: I don't claim to. What I do know is that I and everyone around me is healthy for now - despite a lot of people telling me we shouldn't be. And that this virus has been "in the wild" for less than two years and the vaccine for even less time. So, the truth is that no one can be sure of what the facts are ... yet.

I believe I posted a link a while back to a 60 Minutes special about the swine-flu scare in the late 70s. (Just in case I didn't, I've attached it below.) I think the most important part of that clip is what Judy Roberts' husband says near the end: that people could be "dropping like flies" around him, but he won't take another vaccine that the government tells him to take.

Why did he say this? Because he wasn't told the truth. Imagine that. So who is really being irresponsible here? Is it the people who are cautious about untested vaccines? Or is it the people who are repeating the mistakes of the [incredibly recent] past and possibly creating more actual anti-vaxxers in the process? I agree with Rand Paul when he says that history will be the judge.

It's the same problem as the whole climate change "debate", really. "Alarmists" have been telling us that complete disaster is 5 years away for decades. I'd bet that every 5 years or so the number of people who believe this declines. Eventually we will reach the point of no return. But I wouldn't be surprised if no one believes it.

Oh hey, look! A wolf!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bOHYZhL0WQ

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Joefiss

What I find most curious among the anti vaccination crowd is they have never stated their concern for the welfare of humanity as a reason to not get vaccinated. There has been plenty of name calling, hysteria about some secret cabal bent on world domination, big pharma profit promotion and a host of other reasons supported only by anecdotal "evidence" that has not been independently reviewed. I can't seem to come up with a reason for so many unsubstantiated claims. In the information age and an age of immediate celebrity how such a global conspiracy could remain covert is beyond my comprehension.

Well, exactly. Some people just can't see beyond their own short-term inclinations. Or maybe it's just echo chamber resonance.

As much as I like to argue with them, it's pretty clear on CF and elsewhere that reciting facts, confrontation and arguing is not likely to persuade the COVID vaccine-hesitant. There is vaccine hesitance even among health professionals. I heard an interesting radio program today where a Toronto-area hospital has not gone to coercion or mandates. Instead, they have done presentations, Q&A sessions where any question is allowed, and made councillors available for no-judgement one-on-one discussion about the employee's concerns around the COVID vaccinations. This soft approach has resulted in a higher vaccination rate amongst their employees.

[edit - and SeanPatrick once again shows that it ain't so easy to get through to everyone]

[Shanachie]

Ah, Rotan. The last time I saw one of your posts, you were ranting about how anyone could build a refrigeration system for their boat for a few hundred dollars and we were all fools for buying professionally built fridges.


How has that worked out for you?



I haven't seen any posts on how we can all build your revolutionary new fridge and put Dometic out of business, so I guess you got distracted by epidemiology.


Now that you have decided that all of the vaccines are worthless, can we expect you to design a new one that will save the world?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by SeanPatrick

No, what I'm griping about is intellectual honesty.

I don't think you have a grasp of the concept. We started this pandemic knowing little about the virus. Based on the best available information, advice and direction was given because it was (and is) a pandemic. As information grows our understanding expands and changes, and so does the advice from experts.

So how is this dishonest?

Originally Posted by Nord Sal

We're in two pandemics, one from a virus and the other from authoritarianism.

Oh, we are definitely in two pandemics. One is the virus. The other is disinformation.

[SeanPatrick]

lol I'm done. I'll leave this to the forum members who know everything.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by SeanPatrick

lol I'm done. I'll leave this to the forum members who know everything.

Your point about the importance of honesty, consistency and transparancy of public 'edicts' is entirely valid.

Your hubris about you being the only one who gets it... not so much.

[Greg K]

Hey everybody, I suggest that when not if this thread gets shuts down we all mosey on over to visit Mike, Lake, Gord and the rest of the crew of that echo chamber otherwise known as Canadian Covid News. Since they are all so eager to participate in this discussion here, I am certain they will love to have you all come over there to continue to discuss all these things with them there.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Greg K

Hey everybody, I suggest that when not if this thread gets shuts down we all mosey on over to visit Mike, Lake, Gord and the rest of the crew of that echo chamber otherwise known as Canadian Covid News. Since they are all so eager to participate in this discussion here, I am certain they will love to have you all come over there to continue to discuss all these things with them there.

Oh, I'm sorry. I missed where this thread is about 'not-Canadian'. You are more that welcome to post in the CANADIAN Covid-19 thread. As long as you actually post about CANADIAN information or developments, we're happy to have you. But you never do that, do you..

Sean, once again you seem to miss your own point entirely. No one knows everything about this novel virus, least of all the Internet-experts who claim they know more than actual virus and public health experts.