Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[stevensuf]

I am curious , who is pro or anti vaccine passports? The UK is touting a Mori poll where 66% were pro vaccine passports, I find this very difficult to believe?


Financially, they are forcing vaccines upon people, A family of four going on a summer holiday is going to pay a small fortune for testing before leaving and on arrival back home, take the vaccine which is free and save 800 quid in tests and no 14 day quarantine.


Some are being forced due to their employment, rightly or wrongly.


Surely these vaccines should be made available to those at high risk , here in Portugal they are focusing on those who may spread it, more than those who may die from it.


Anyways it looks like the people in control are going to force vaccines upon the population whether they like it or not, they are certainly going out of their way
to make life very difficult for those who do not take the vaccine.


I am still awaiting the development or the release of a more deadly strain, it will probably develop/be released once everyone has had the current vaccine.


I certainly hope this mess all goes away, but my gut is telling me this a multi
decade game being played out here, that has been a long time in the planning.


I really hope I am wrong!

[Exile]

Originally Posted by stevensuf

Financially, they are forcing vaccines upon people, A family of four going on a summer holiday is going to pay a small fortune for testing before leaving and on arrival back home, take the vaccine which is free and save 800 quid in tests and no 14 day quarantine.

Not necessarily, and will likely vary by country or region once more is learned from the ongoing worldwide vaccination process. Maybe not the best example, but I am planning to sail to Bermuda from the US e. coast in late spring/early summer, and so have been regularly checking their official, regularly updated Covid restrictions and protocols. While they recently (3/31) created a separate category for visitors who have been immunized/vaccinated, as far as I can tell they still require the same testing regimen regardless to avoid quarantine, namely a neg test result within 5 days of departure, another one upon arrival, and then again at various intervals of one's stay starting after the first 4 days.

This is why I asked the question above re: vaccine passports vs. testing. Nobody yet knows with certainty how effective the vaccines will ultimately prove to be, or how long the immunity they provide will last. OTOH, and assuming the Covid tests are as reliable as has been claimed in a prior post, then it would seem CV testing for travel may be a more reliable way of safeguarding the population, whether a visitor has been vaccinated or not. IOW, I'm not sure the vaccine will actually supplant the need for testing, at least based on the current state of the medical evidence. If so, then such passports may not be worth the societal downsides, loss of privacy, etc. But this only seems potentially applicable now, and based on assumptions on my part which may be incorrect. Either way, these considerations will undoubtedly change as more information comes to light.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Exile

If the Covid tests are so reliable, then I don't understand any requirement for vaccine passports.

While the vaccine provides confidence that the vaccinated person is unlikely to become seriously ill or die from Covid, it has yet to be proven that a vaccinated person is significantly less likely to be infected or to be contagious to others.

If and when it is proven that vaccinated persons are not likely to be contagious then the risk of spread to non-vaccinated persons by vaccinated persons can be presumed not a health hazard.

Not everyone has been fully vaccinated.

Hence presently tests can provide a high degree of confidence that a person is not infected and thus not contagious.'

When everyone has had the opportunity to be vaccinated then it can become realizable to avail vaccination passports. The implementation of vaccine passports is presently a premature concept.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by Exile

Now here's quite a piece of "responsible" journalism, along with a rather "selective" choice of quotes (that are not in fact in quotations) to include in your post. But perhaps most misleading of all was the title of the article itself (which you left out), namely

"A third of Covid-19 survivors suffer 'brain disease,' study shows."

Really? Does "brain disease" include both psychological and physiological/neurological disorders? Apparently so. Which category does anxiety disorder fall in? The article doesn't say, even though anxiety comprises half of the 34% total. Is anxiety disorder considered a "brain disease," at least in the minds of most laymen relying on CNN to provide them with accurate medical info on CV-19? How about mood disorders? How about the 1/50 the article mentions who suffer strokes? Should all of these be lumped together as "brain disease?" Or is it pretty obvious why there might be a higher incidence of, for example, anxiety disorder for people who contract Covid as opposed to those who catch the seasonal flu or are diagnosed with more common respiratory infections? In fact, the article (but notably not the study) goes even further and characterizes CV-19 itself as a "brain disease." It's not until the very last paragraph that some sorely needed perspective is provided, with one of the researchers acknowledging that:

"Although the individual risks for most disorders are small, the effect across the whole population may be substantial for health and social care systems due to the scale of the pandemic and that many of these conditions are chronic," Harrison said. "As a result, health care systems need to be resourced to deal with the anticipated need, both within primary and secondary care services." (Emphasis mine).

Fair enough, and certainly more than reasonable. But somehow, and in the very same article, we went from Covid giving 1/3 of all patients "brain disease," to the individual risk of most of these disorders as being "small." Good thing I didn't just rely on the article's title and the first few paragraphs you quoted or I may have been alarmed that catching Covid meant not only having to fight the infection and trying to control the inevitable anxiety over whether I may survive, but also that I had a 1 in 3 chance of also contracting some sort of "brain disease."

To be clear, I'm not criticizing the actual study which presumably is much more useful to the medical community than the article describes. The article itself, on the other hand, seems to be a classic example of distorting legitimate and important science for the sake of an unrelated agenda. Isn't there enough legitimate alarm surrounding this ongoing pandemic without needing to exaggerate it?

[QUOTE] Really? Does "brain disease" include both psychological and physiological/neurological disorders? Apparently so. Which category does anxiety disorder fall in?[/QUOTE ]

I am inclined to believe, most psychological and neurological problems are on the side of covid survivers without an infection, rather then the recovered people. Anxiety, fanatic craving for experimental shots, hysterically defending masks and lockdowns, furiously attacking people with other views... This defines for me a psychosis, and the cause is not a survival of a pathogene virus but a overexaggregated, self amplyfying echo chamber of mass media, and the fear - this never ends.

It reminds me on the mars attack radio show (The war of the worlds 1938), that has caused a similar psychosis to the listeners.

Cranberries :

"It's in your head, in your head, Zombie, Zombie...."

[CatNewBee]

Historic data Germany death rate, trends. No spike in mortality in 2020 whatsoever. The increase results from the age pyramide in Germany, where there was a big dip in the young population decades ago - what leaded to the controversial discussions of need importing young refugees to buff out the bump and secure the state pension system.

Nothing unusual, that may show a pandemic.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Montanan

While the vaccine provides confidence that the vaccinated person is unlikely to become seriously ill or die from Covid, it has yet to be proven that a vaccinated person is significantly less likely to be infected or to be contagious to others.

If and when it is proven that vaccinated persons are not likely to be contagious then the risk of spread to non-vaccinated persons by vaccinated persons can be presumed not a health hazard.

Not everyone has been fully vaccinated.

Hence presently tests can provide a high degree of confidence that a person is not infected and thus not contagious.'

When everyone has had the opportunity to be vaccinated then it can become realizable to avail vaccination passports. The implementation of vaccine passports is presently a premature concept.

Exactly what some of us have been discussing in the thread. Except not everyone will be vaccinated, and by the time everyone who wants one gets one there may be people who were vaccinated early on who no longer are immunized. But the issue is not a waiting period for passports until most are vaccinated, but rather whether proof of vaccinations will ever be as reliable and protective of public health as testing. If not, then passport mandates may not be justified given the societal concerns and downsides. This shouldn't compromise the public's motivation to become vaccinated since they have thus far shown not only to slow hospitalizations and deaths, but also infection rates. Time will (hopefully) tell, of course.

You may be correct that passport implementation may be premature, but it is already being discussed and debated at the highest levels of the US govt and elsewhere no doubt. Now is therefore the time to begin discussing/debating, even though certain assumptions must be made given the current trajectory of vaccinations and infections. Still much to learn, and still much can and probably will change. Not the time to be rigid or doctrinaire, and certainly not the time to allow personal fear, political partisanship, or biased agenda-driven media to subsume rational and intelligent thought processes and discussions.

[Exile]

I found your questions and comments in this post most worthwhile. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

This pandemic has been marked by extremes. My initial impression was that the media was driving this. Balanced views do not “sell papers”. But it is not simply the media. What is it in our natures that seems to thrive off extremes rather than balance?

I always figured it had a lot to do with simply being easier, and many/most humans are rather lazy by nature. They want to find answers but are unwilling to undertake what can be a laborious learning process.

Is it simply the need for certainty? Is it fear? Have we become accustomed and complacent about handing over responsibility of our safety to others? Do we draw comfort from having restrictions imposed on others in the community to feel safer ourselves? Or is it the sense that if we are suffering others should be as well?

I'm no mental health expert but I would be inclined to conclude "all of the above," with fear being the predominant motivator in its own right, as well as the underlying factor for the others you list.

There even seems to be some morbid fascination in hearing worst case scenarios. I hesitate calling the latter pleasure, but some people seem to be absolutely gleeful when reporting the worst possible interpretation of data. And almost all data can be skewed to suit any purpose.

Few will ever admit it, but I suppose if somebody is worse off it makes others feel better? Not sure exactly why but it does seem like an all-too-human trait. Why do so many motorists slow down to eyeball accident scenes when they know it is not only morbid but is also what exacerbates traffic jams? But these days, and maybe especially in the dysfunctional and divided U.S., many people are so subsumed with politics that it's become a personal identity of sorts, with their tribal-like loyalties leading them to kindred spirits and media sources that only tell them what they want to read and hear. Many others, of course, have some sort of affirmative agenda which they feel justifies going further, and even coming onto public forums to try and sell their own personal, albeit divisive points of view. I also get the sense it's some sorta weird need to make oneself feel superior over others, which in turn somehow justifies "educating" others who would otherwise remain "ignorant." In reality, it only substitutes arrogance in place of what is really needed, namely humility.

This is carrying through to vaccination. Vaccines are either promoted as 100% safe or evil. Anyone hesitating to be vaccinated is labelled an “anti-vaxxer” and immediately thrown in with the group promoting whacky theories involving the 5G network and injection of chips. They are shamed for lack of “social responsibility”, for being selfish and stupid, along with having a host of other horrid traits, despite COVID-19 vaccines providing the vulnerable with almost 100% protection from severe illness irrespective of what anyone around them does.

It's ridiculous, and often frankly pretty cruel. Whether to get vaxed or not with an experimental substance should not be taken lightly and should be respected, and is one of the more personal medical decisions someone can make. But the worst for me are the ones you mention who claim title to "superior social responsibility," even though they have no idea what may be motivating someone else to get vaxed or not. More selfish feel-good nonsense that is astoundingly disrespectful and insensitive to other peoples' personal decisionmaking, all under the guise of presuming (as laymen no less) that they know what's best for others.

There is nothing black and white about this pandemic.

That's for sure. Just play around with some of the CDC data comparing various metrics between U.S. states like FL & TX who relaxed restrictions early, and others such as CA & NY who had and still have some of the most restrictive regimens in place. They are all based on rates/100,000, and include cumulative and daily infections and deaths, respectively. (you may have to plug in states manually)

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra...alcasesper100k

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra...ldeathsper100k

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra...ewcasesper100k

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra...wdeathsper100k

Yeah, I know . . . rather shockingly similar, no? And in many cases the opposite of what many (incl. experts) predicted. Does this data justify a firm conclusion that mandatory restrictions made no difference? I don't know, too many variables. Does it mean that some states did a much better job than others of balancing the competing interests of safeguarding the population from the spread of Covid while also not destroying peoples' livelihoods, their kids' educations, and the overall economy? Probably so. And certainly all the partisan-driven praising & bashing based on the party affiliation of state governors rather than the merits of their policies had to have been one of the most absurd things I've witnessed from the start of this. Partisanship & ideology only breed extremism, and extremism breeds stupid decisionmaking which invariably dumbs down the real issues in play.

I very much hope that once the most vulnerable have been vaccinated and death rates plummet and then some semblance of normal life resumes, that the drive to mass vaccinate subsides. Most of these COVID-19 vaccines employ modes of action never before used on humans.

My understanding is the one exception (of sorts) you may be alluding to is the J&J vaccine which uses similar technology that's been used for a long time prior to the onset of Covid-19, and similar to what was used to develop and implement the Ebola vaccine. Please correct me if I have this wrong.

This is not equivalent to “just another jab”. There is zero long term data for these new vaccines. I usually prefer to give situations I encounter a positive spin, but burying our heads in the sand and ignoring all the possible risks is very dangerous, particularly when it comes to mass vaccination of the next generation with vaccines not trialled long term, particularly when the healthy young are at next to no risk themselves from severe disease.

Another reason for people not to use such a broad brush, and simply assume that what they believe is good for them is therefore good for others. The reality is that most of the world's population seems likely to get vaccinated, and so there will be sufficient numbers to at least put a serious damper on the spread of the virus, if not achieve herd immunity. One of the concerns I have with vaccine passports is this will become yet another way to create division amongst us, with the potential ostracization and/or shaming that is so fashionable these days for dealing with those we don't agree with.

I need to add that I am not against vaccination. My little yellow book is so full that notations with batch numbers and signatures are now flowing onto blank pages.

Your position has always been quite clear and well articulated, at least to me. But some people are unable or unwilling to consider such nuances or shades of grey, no matter how obvious to others. There's an old quip that captures this better than I ever could, and it goes something like "the trouble with this world is that the ignorant are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." (can't remember the author)

[geoleo]

Its obvious to most countries including those Nordic Socialists that rich dudes in sailboats wandering from country to country seemingly without purpose poses a Covid risk..and that such travel is not necessary to the country. Sorry.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Exile

... There's an old quip that captures this better than I ever could, and it goes something like "the trouble with this world is that the ignorant are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." (can't remember the author)

“The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.” ~ Bertrand Russell

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Exile

My understanding is the one exception (of sorts) you may be alluding to is the J&J vaccine which uses similar technology that's been used for a long time prior to the onset of Covid-19, and similar to what was used to develop and implement the Ebola vaccine. Please correct me if I have this wrong.

The vaccines I was thinking of are the ones that use more traditional technology of inactivated virus. Several have been produced by China, India and Russia:

CHINA:
Sinopharm
CoronaVac (Sinovac)

INDIA:
Covaxin

RUSSIA:
CoviVac

The J&J / Janssen COVID vaccine uses similar technology to the J&J Ebola vaccine that was approved about 10 months ago, but the replication deficient adenovirus carrier is human. As far as I am aware the J&J Ebola vaccine was the very first vaccine of its kind approved for human use. This is also similar to the AstraZeneca vaccine which uses a chimpanzee adenovirus vector, and the Sputnik V which uses two different human adenovirus vectors for the 2 doses.

The number and variety of COVID-19 vaccines produced during this past year have been absolutely extraordinary. Some of the new technology may now lead to rapid advances in the treatment of other conditions including cancer. This may eventually be the silver lining to this pandemic.

[UFO]

They are eventually coming out and confirming (to a degree) the link between AZ vaccine and blood clots. UK will also be offering a different vaccine to those under 30. Looks like the bulk of the blood clots have occurred in Women under 60.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56665150

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Could these be the symptoms of the 'Brain Disorders' that Covid brings according to Montanan's research...

It can be hard to discern what "brain disorders" pre-dated the outbreak of Covid and which may have arisen or have been enhanced by Covid.

I suspect there was an innate predisposition of some sort that Covid may have exploited. Kind of like the association of the danger of this virus and co-morbidities.

[Montanan]

Norway’s government may extend the European Union entry ban imposed on third countries citizens until November 10 this year, in order to protect Norwegian citizens from the Coronavirus and its new variants, the country’s Ministry of Justice and Public Security has announced.

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/new...november-2021/

The ban was introduced for the first time in mid-March last year, amid the first wave of Coronavirus infections. However, the rapid spread of the virus pushed the country’s authorities to prolong it until June 1, 2021, due to COVID-19, SchengenVisaInfo.com reports.

“We are still in a serious infection situation. It is therefore essential to extend the legal basis for entry restrictions. We all hope that the infection situation will soon improve, and we are continuously considering easing the entry restrictions,” Norwegian Minister of Justice and Emergency Management Monica Mæland (H) pointed out in this regard.

In addition, the hospital district Länsi-Pohja in Finland will go from yellow to red on Europe’s infection map due to the Coronavirus situation; therefore, the Ministry advises citizens to avoid non-essential travel to this area.

All persons who wish to enter Norway from Länsi-Pohja, from March 29 will be required to follow the 10-days mandatory quarantine rule.

[Montanan]

Lithuania has announced that the country does not plan on recognising travel certificates of persons vaccinated with the Russian Sputnik V vaccine. According to the Lithuanian Permanent Representation to EU Simonas Šatūnas, Lithuania refuses to include any vaccines that the European Union’s drug regulator does not recognise in the vaccine certificates’ scheme.

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/new...-certificates/

Commenting on the decision, Šatūnas explained that Lithuania strongly believes that only the vaccines authorised by the European Medicines Agency (EMA) should be part of the Digital Green Certificate.

The Digital Green Certificate aims to establish a system that allows recording the vaccination status, previous COVID-19 infections as well as test results in order to ease travel through the EU area.

Only last Sunday, the EU Internal Market Commissioner Thierry Breton pointed out that the Commission intends to launch the vaccination certificate programme by the middle of June, SchengenVisaInfo.com reports.

[Montanan]

The Finnish Government has decided to extend the country’s entry restrictions until at least April 30, 2021, due to the COVID-19 situation that continues to prevail. The new decision will be effective from April 1.

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/new...ntil-april-30/

Prior to this decision, during the second week of March, Finland extended the country’s entry restrictions against all Schengen Area countries until April 17, 2021.

Commenting on the newly agreed decision, Finland’s Ministry of Interior said that in order to contain the spread of the new Coronavirus variants, internal border controls and restrictions on external border traffic must remain in place.

Except for the internal and external border restrictions, the Ministry informed that restrictions will be imposed on the working hours of specific border crossing points as well, including the western and eastern border crossing points in Lapland.

The open border crossing points are currently available only for Finnish residents returning to the country, as well as for other EU citizens travelling for essential purposes only. Additionally, cruise ships are permitted to enter the port without passengers landing in Finland.

. . .

Finland has restricted all traffic from other Schengen Area countries except for Iceland. The Schengen countries restricted from entering Finland include Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Italy, Austria, Greece, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Portugal, Poland, France, Sweden, Germany, Slovakia, Slovenia, Finland, Denmark, the Czech Republic, Hungary and Estonia, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Switzerland.

The restrictions on external border traffic have remained unchanged. They have already been lifted for Australia, Vatican City, South Korea, Singapore, Rwanda, Thailand, and New Zealand due to the low infection rate in these countries,

The Finnish Government also pointed out that all Finnish residents have the right to return to the country and leave the country at any time unless any specific law restricts them.