Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[boatman61]

Dunno about 'Picking Camps'.. seemed to me more like people being Allocated Camps by the Zealots.
I am neither Pro nor Anti vaccine and believe everyone should be free to choose their own way in life.
I have had the requisite 2 jabs, not because I fear the virus, but because it seems the only way I can maintain the right to earn a living..
Kinda takes me back to Pakistan where if you don't vote the way your landlord tells you you lose your home and patch of land to till..
AKA Serfdom..

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by damianham

Yes that is absolutely correct, we have been forced to pick one camp or the other.

What I find so completely distasteful is the suggestion from the vaxxed camp that the unvaxxed are a danger to them - they just can't see the irony in that, and that the unvaxxed should have their liberties restricted while the vaxxed can go about their lives as they wish.

If you believe the hype and are worried about covid then by all means mask up and get the shot, it is your personal choice. Just don't force me to do it if I don't believe the hype because that is allowing you a personal choice but denying me one, and that my friends is tyranny.

Remember that in Germany in the 30s a section of the population were forced to wear a yellow star. Don't forget history or you will be doomed to repeat it.

Well if you are going to invoke nazis then obviously my point went way, way over your head

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by damianham

Yes that is absolutely correct, we have been forced to pick one camp or the other.

What I find so completely distasteful is the suggestion from the vaxxed camp that the unvaxxed are a danger to them - they just can't see the irony in that, and that the unvaxxed should have their liberties restricted while the vaxxed can go about their lives as they wish.

If you believe the hype and are worried about covid then by all means mask up and get the shot, it is your personal choice. Just don't force me to do it if I don't believe the hype because that is allowing you a personal choice but denying me one, and that my friends is tyranny.

Remember that in Germany in the 30s a section of the population were forced to wear a yellow star. Don't forget history or you will be doomed to repeat it.

Sorry , you are suggesting that your personal freedoms should allow you to walk around with a highly contagious and potentially serious disease!!! And I’m the one to take the precautions. !!

Society will take precautions all right by ultimately denying your right to walk around, whatever you say , that’s how the cookie will crumble

Ultimately the non vaccinated will be restricted “ for their own good “ of course.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I think that censorship of discussions revolving around COVID-19 and the vaccines has simply made people cautious of accepting government mantra. If information is being suppressed it immediately raises suspicion and doubt, particularly when the views of medical practitioners and scientists are being censored.

As for some of the posts on FB and other social media, the whacky theories that have been promoted have simply muddied the waters when it comes to concerns regarding what, in my view, are real issues regarding the long term safety of these new vaccines. I think those promoting wild theories have simply done their cause a great disservice.

SWL

Yes, I was actually thinking about you when I read that article. I don't agree with you, but I disagree with great humility since I am not a health care professional, unlike you. The article is all about respect and engagement, vs. full on culture war. It said explicitly -- not everyone who has concerns about the vaccines, is an idiot. And therefore, should not be treated as such. It's very wise and good.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by damianham

Yes that is absolutely correct, we have been forced to pick one camp or the other.

What I find so completely distasteful is the suggestion from the vaxxed camp that the unvaxxed are a danger to them - they just can't see the irony in that, and that the unvaxxed should have their liberties restricted while the vaxxed can go about their lives as they wish.. . .

But objectively speaking, the unvaxxed ARE a danger, to the whole society.

This danger will be mitigated once you -- inevitably -- get infected, and acquire natural immunity. But how many other people did you infect in the process?

I'm a libertarian -- so very much concerned with individual liberties, more so than 99% of the population. But I don't believe in an individual liberty to infect other people, to spread a frequently fatal disease.

The Supreme Court ruled, more than a hundred years ago, that states have the right to force people to get vaccinated. In a time of pandemic, there may be an overwhelming public interest in that.

I'm kind of ok with that.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

But objectively speaking, the unvaxxed ARE a danger, to the whole society.

This danger will be mitigated once you -- inevitably -- get infected, and acquire natural immunity. But how many other people did you infect in the process?

I'm a libertarian -- so very much concerned with individual liberties, more so than 99% of the population. But I don't believe in an individual liberty to infect other people, to spread a frequently fatal disease.

The Supreme Court ruled, more than a hundred years ago, that states have the right to force people to get vaccinated. In a time of pandemic, there may be an overwhelming public interest in that.

I'm kind of ok with that.

Not sure if I would call myself a libertarian per se, perhaps more of an slightly evolved anti establishment rebel from the sixties. Regardless my feelings are quite similar. Not anxious at all for the government to tell me what I can and can't do.

However, I also strongly believe in whatever version you like of the old quote, "your right to swing your arm leaves off where my right not to have my nose struck begins". Don't want to get vaccinated? Fine but exercising your "right" to not be vaccinated should not infringe on the rights of others to stay well.

I here lots of "mandatory vaccines is a violation of my rights". Such total nonsense. Living in a civilized society one by necessity has to give up a lot of rights. You don't have the right to drive 90 mph through a school zone and for the same basic reason, it endangers others.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Yes, I was actually thinking about you when I read that article. I don't agree with you, but I disagree with great humility since I am not a health care professional, unlike you. The article is all about respect and engagement, vs. full on culture war. It said explicitly -- not everyone who has concerns about the vaccines, is an idiot. And therefore, should not be treated as such. It's very wise and good.

There have been comments made above that people must choose what camp they fall into. I think that this is the heart of the problem. Keeping an open mind, considering both “sides” and making personal decisions based on a cost/benefit ratio does not seem to be widely considered.

There is nothing black and white about medical issues. At least rarely. This does not seem to be understood at all. In this instance, the new vaccines are not 100% safe as both governments and CF members have repeatedly insisted (thankfully this rhetoric has died down to some degree). Nor are they akin to the spawn of the devil as others are promoting. They are undoubtedly lifesaving for many of the vulnerable.

I think too that a culture has developed where people are most comfortable being “looked after”, in this case even bullying others to ensure everyone around them is vaccinated to reduce their own risk, and informing against neighbours when rules are broken (some of them ridiculous and not at all “based on science/health advice”, as promoted).

A lot about this pandemic concerns me that has nothing to do with medical issues.

SWL

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

There have been comments made above that people must choose what camp they fall into. I think that this is the heart of the problem. Keeping an open mind, considering both “sides” and making personal decisions based on a cost/benefit ratio does not seem to be widely considered.

There is nothing black and white about medical issues. At least rarely. This does not seem to be understood at all. In this instance, the new vaccines are not 100% safe as both governments and CF members have repeatedly insisted (thankfully this rhetoric has died down to some degree). Nor are they akin to the spawn of the devil as others are promoting. They are undoubtedly lifesaving for many of the vulnerable.

I think too that a culture has developed where people are most comfortable being “looked after”, in this case even bullying others to ensure everyone around them is vaccinated to reduce their own risk, and informing against neighbours when rules are broken (some of them ridiculous and not at all “based on science/health advice”, as promoted).

A lot about this pandemic concerns me that has nothing to do with medical issues.

SWL

I considered lots of different replies to this post. But in the end really only one word is needed. "Yep."

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

snip...
A lot about this pandemic concerns me that has nothing to do with medical issues.

SWL

What concerns me are the restrictions on the borders. I understand the need to slow down the pandemic but when the virus is allready spreading inside borders where 1000 fold people travel around without restrictions that's just plain stupid.
Last year in January and February that might've been a smart move but now

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

What concerns me are the restrictions on the borders. I understand the need to slow down the pandemic but when the virus is allready spreading inside borders where 1000 fold people travel around without restrictions that's just plain stupid.

Last year in January and February that might've been a smart move but now

In a pandemic where populations are frightened “ fear of the outsider “ is a palpable concern. This is one politicians react too.

But the reality is most movement restrictions are being removed and the vast majority will be gone by year end.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

There have been comments made above that people must choose what camp they fall into. I think that this is the heart of the problem. Keeping an open mind, considering both “sides” and making personal decisions based on a cost/benefit ratio does not seem to be widely considered.



There is nothing black and white about medical issues. At least rarely. This does not seem to be understood at all. In this instance, the new vaccines are not 100% safe as both governments and CF members have repeatedly insisted (thankfully this rhetoric has died down to some degree). Nor are they akin to the spawn of the devil as others are promoting. They are undoubtedly lifesaving for many of the vulnerable.



I think too that a culture has developed where people are most comfortable being “looked after”, in this case even bullying others to ensure everyone around them is vaccinated to reduce their own risk, and informing against neighbours when rules are broken (some of them ridiculous and not at all “based on science/health advice”, as promoted).



A lot about this pandemic concerns me that has nothing to do with medical issues.



SWL

Firstly public health is a “ public good” where the needs of the many clearly outweigh the needs of the few.

Hence the overriding view that the vaccines are better then the disease.

Whether you like that or not , that’s the majority perspective.

That majority perspective is simply not going to entertain an alternative view, where in its mind being unvaccinated means you risk spreading the disease or providing a base for mutations

Remember you or I have in reality no “ inalienable rights “ despite what bits of paper claim. We all live interdependently and in society

Once “ society “ withdraws its acceptance of our “ rights” those rights have a nasty habit of disappearing.

We can moan on about it all we like, but our supposed freedoms really exist because the majority of people tolerate them. Change that and watch those rights vanish in thin air.

I agree with your last paragraph. But the fact is that’s not unusual in governments which often scree things up or try and balance competing interests and end up annoying everyone

But I am happy that most decisions are routed in medical advice particularly the vaccine process

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

…..But I am happy that most decisions are routed in medical advice particularly the vaccine process

Medical advice is by no means universal regarding this issue. There are quite disparate views regarding some aspects, and governments are cherry picking which advice they are taking.

There is little transparency regarding the scientific basis for the strategies governments are selecting, and dissenting medical views are being suppressed. Any of the general public expressing concerns are being labelled selfish anti-vaxxers, or worse.

All this bothers me tremendously.

SWL

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Medical advice is by no means universal regarding this issue. There are quite disparate views regarding some aspects, and governments are cherry picking which advice they are taking.

There is little transparency regarding the scientific basis for the strategies governments are selecting, and dissenting medical views are being suppressed. Any of the general public expressing concerns are being labelled selfish anti-vaxxers, or worse.

All this bothers me tremendously.

SWL

While not all medical advice is consistent the vast centre ground of reasonable immunologists support the vaccine program. The requisite trials have been run and monitored carefully especially by the EU , which did not approve them on an emergency basis. unlike the U.K. or US.

The choice is not palatable , wait till some perfect nirvana vaccine is available and let COVID rip through the population, or subject populations to increasingly stringent lockdowns for years.

The COVID vaccines are extremely effective in comparison to many other vaccines , no vaccine is perfect. All vaccines have break through rates etc.

But the vaccine programme is having quantifiable and visible effects. Hospital admissions are way down , serious ICU treatments are way down

That’s the point , whether you like them or not the vaccine programme is having a tremendous effect in preventing serious disease and death.

To deny this is like trying to argue the sky is pink

Could a side effect be lurking in the vaccine. That risk of course exists. But we balance risk and reward every time we drive a car. This is no different.

I do not agree anti sentiment is being suppressed, if anything social media amplification is given pseudo science and conspiracy mumbo jumbo a platform it doesn’t deserve.

Have we seen an erosion of civil rights , absolutely that’s not in question

Do most people believe that loss of rights was justified , sadly yes. If anything public mood is more stringent then public policy

The public want this disease put behind them , vaccines are seen as a way to achieve this , you stand in front of a juggernaut at your own peril !


Governments balance medical advice with political concerns. Different govs attach different priorities to the same thing resulting in a inconsistent approach across nations. That doesn’t indicate the medical advice is flawed merely our governing is , but we know that already. !!

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

While not all medical advice is consistent the vast centre ground of reasonable immunologists support the vaccine program. The requisite trials have been run and monitored carefully especially by the EU , which did not approve them on an emergency basis. unlike the U.K. or US.

The choice is not palatable , wait till some perfect nirvana vaccine is available and let COVID rip through the population, or subject populations to increasingly stringent lockdowns for years.

The COVID vaccines are extremely effective in comparison to many other vaccines , no vaccine is perfect. All vaccines have break through rates etc.

But the vaccine programme is having quantifiable and visible effects. Hospital admissions are way down , serious ICU treatments are way down

That’s the point , whether you like them or not the vaccine programme is having a tremendous effect in preventing serious disease and death.

To deny this is like trying to argue the sky is pink

Could a side effect be lurking in the vaccine. That risk of course exists. But we balance risk and reward every time we drive a car. This is no different.

I do not agree anti sentiment is being suppressed, if anything social media amplification is given pseudo science and conspiracy mumbo jumbo a platform it doesn’t deserve.

Have we seen an erosion of civil rights , absolutely that’s not in question

Do most people believe that loss of rights was justified , sadly yes. If anything public mood is more stringent then public policy

The public want this disease put behind them , vaccines are seen as a way to achieve this , you stand in front of a juggernaut at your own peril !


Governments balance medical advice with political concerns. Different govs attach different priorities to the same thing resulting in a inconsistent approach across nations. That doesn’t indicate the medical advice is flawed merely our governing is , but we know that already. !!

I hope the vaccine left some logical thinking alive.

IF the vaccine is effective, vaccinated have nothing to fear from the unvaccinated, because they should be protected.

IF the vaccine doesn't work, you are screwed anyway and have nothing to fear from the unvaccinated either.

The only one who should fear unvaccinated are the lawmakers, if the vaccines and lockdowns and mask mandates show they were obsolete, the disease is not worse than a flu and cannot be controlled anyway.

They are the living evidence, that this was a plandemic and the control group for the vaccinated. Without a control group you cannot proof efficacy.

The "geater good for the society" has done horrible things in the past, from all that claimed it - communists and nazis. Ethnic cleansing was for the "greater good of the envisioned society" and a lot of gulaks too. China has "education camps" for the greater good, same in North Korea. Always when individuals are opressed for the "greater good" one has to stand up and protect the individuum from the mob. "Witches" were burned too for the greater good btw.

Health is very individual. The sick person suffers first before it spreads it to others. The "Vaccines" doesn't prevent spreading, they just hope to train your own immune system. They do not neutralize the virus. You still can get it, can have it, can spread it and even can die of it.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I hope the vaccine left some logical thinking alive.

IF the vaccine is effective, vaccinated have nothing to fear from the unvaccinated, because they should be protected.

IF the vaccine doesn't work, you are screwed anyway and have nothing to fear from the unvaccinated either.

The only one who should fear unvaccinated are the lawmakers, if the vaccines and lockdowns and mask mandates show they were obsolete, the disease is not worse than a flu and cannot be controlled anyway.

They are the living evidence, that this was a plandemic and the control group for the vaccinated. Without a control group you cannot proof efficacy.

The "geater good for the society" has done horrible things in the past, from all that claimed it - communists and nazis. Ethnic cleansing was for the greater good and a lot of gulaks too. China has "education camps" for the greater good, same in North Korea. Always when individuals are opressed for the greater good one has to stand up and protect the individuum from the mob. "Witches" were burned too for the greater good btw.

Oh dear.... there may be some logical thinking in the above somewhere but there is a complete absence of critical thinking and a lack of any nuanced perception.

For instance, comparing the whys and wherefores in a dictatorship with the processes in a democratic society will lead you to an incorrect and frankly stupid conclusion.

Can you think of any individual whose suppression resulted in the greater good? I can! Likewise the reverse.

However by and large, the community is far better off now than when witches were common. Regularly burning them has allowed you to live a cruising life. Oh wait... I am slipping back into logical thought.