Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[Exile]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

CatNewBee writes sheer nonsense

* U.K. data shows that the vaccines inhibits the spread of the virus significantly

* U.K. data shows the unvaccinated are the majority in hospital with 66% ,

* U.K. data shows that the vaccine prevents significant illness

“
“If fully vaccinated, the risk of being hospitalised falls by about 90%,” said Prof David Spiegelhalter, chair of the Winton Centre for Risk and Evidence Communication, at Cambridge University. “

Whatever way you look at the data the vaccines are incredibly effective

Are they perfect no , there will always be “ breakthrough “ infections that doesn’t mean the vaccine isn’t working it is.

Public health measure are effective , we have seen that , lockdowns served to break the rise of infections almost everywhere they were used. It’s not pretty , but they worked

Your rights stop at my nose.
Or put another way , if you carry a significant infectious disease that has serious consequences you your personal freedoms don’t override my right not to be placed in danger by your freedoms.

That’s always been the overriding policy of public health


Let’s leave the conspiracy nut jobs , government power grabs etc etc outside the door for the looney fringe to scream about , it’s utter nonsense

( it always amuses me that conspiracy nut jobs will proclaim the government is incompetent at every turn then argue the very same organisation is capable of organising and executing a complex global control conspiracy !!!)

By the way CatNewBee I know loads of people who got colds , I’ve never seen anyone be as sick with anything like they were sick with COVID. Nor do I know colds that killed people

it’s no f-ing cold that’s for sure don’t belittle those that died or got seriously sick by comparing COVID to the common cold thank you.

While I agree with most of this, you could omit the slurs, labels, and derogatory comments and be that much more credible and persuasive (and also "nice"). Oftentimes, as we've often seen throughout this otherwise excellent thread, it's the presentation of contrarian views which instigate the most informative dialogue by people pushing back with the most current science.

For example, you correctly cite the effectiveness of the vaccines, including the original and still (hopefully) the most important goal of preventing hospitalizations and deaths, but then say,

"Your rights stop at my nose.
Or put another way , if you carry a significant infectious disease that has serious consequences you your personal freedoms don’t override my right not to be placed in danger by your freedoms."

A vaccine skeptic (do we really need to start in with the "denier" label from the mindless climate change debates?) might push back and say there are little if any "serious consequences" from an unvaccinated or (possibly) vaccinated person carrying CV-19 to a person who is fully vaccinated for the reasons you correctly point out. So why go after the unvaccinated? I think the answer, according to Fauci et al. and other health care officials, is that to slow or maybe even stop the spread of the virus and its variants everyone will have to be vaccinated. I'm inclined to agree, but can also see why there's pushback. As it is, the politicians in the US are already busy lining themselves up to make it yet another part of the culture wars and thus score political points. It'd be nice if we keep this particular thread free of that.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Exile

While I agree with most of this, you could omit the slurs, labels, and derogatory comments and be that much more credible and persuasive (and also "nice"). Oftentimes, as we've often seen throughout this otherwise excellent thread, it's the presentation of contrarian views which instigate the most informative dialogue by people pushing back with the most current science.



For example, you correctly cite the effectiveness of the vaccines, including the original and still (hopefully) the most important goal of preventing hospitalizations and deaths, but then say,



"Your rights stop at my nose.

Or put another way , if you carry a significant infectious disease that has serious consequences you your personal freedoms don’t override my right not to be placed in danger by your freedoms."



A vaccine skeptic (do we really need to start in with the "denier" label from the mindless climate change debates?) might push back and say there are little if any "serious consequences" from an unvaccinated or (possibly) vaccinated person carrying CV-19 to a person who is fully vaccinated for the reasons you correctly point out. So why go after the unvaccinated? I think the answer, according to Fauci et al. and other health care officials, is that to slow or maybe even stop the spread of the virus and its variants everyone will have to be vaccinated. I'm inclined to agree, but can also see why there's pushback. As it is, the politicians in the US are already busy lining themselves up to make it yet another part of the culture wars and thus score political points. It'd be nice if we keep this particular thread free of that.

I’m not the one equating COVID to the common cold ( CatNewBee called it the COVID cold )

That’s a gratuitous insult to the many people that got seriously ill and those that died

Secondly anti Vaxxers are “ deniers “. I respect someone saying “ I’ve decided not to get vaccinated because I’m scared of side effects “. Buy too many anti-Vaxxers peddle completely false narratives about the vaccine being ineffective or even worse suggesting there is no difference between being vaccinated and not . Deniers deny the truth that’s the essence of it. ( cognitive dissonance)

This is simply utterly false.

The only way we are getting out of this pandemic without massive increases in serious illness and death is that a clear majority of the public accept the vaccine works and its demonstrably does.

The alternative would be increased variants , more illness and deaths , an overwhelming of the medical system until at some future point the herd immunity kicks in

That’s a price most modern educated societies are simply NOT willing to pay. No one is prepared to let their elderly mother be an experiment in herd immunity !!!

Anti Vaxxers , many of whom have bought into a particular orange hued political perspective have continuously peddled nonsense to attempt to either protray COVID as some form of “ cold” , or made cheap political jibes , like wuhan flue , this is an insult to the seriously ill and dead from COVID.

Anti-Vaxxers persist in presenting the vaccine as unsafe , a classic argument being the emergency authorisation ( which isn’t the case in the EU for example ) or voicing “ perceived “ long term side effects when none have materially emerged ( 8 months later )

Yes we are coming out of this pandemic , hopefully by end of 2021 .

But all that anti Vaxxers are doing is hindering that process

[Exile]

Not all that are reluctant to get vaccinated are "anti-vaxxers." The pushback is not confined to any particular country or even region, and has many different reasons. In the US, for example, the two largest groups of unvaccinated are rural conservatives and inner city minorities. Hardly two groups that share political philosophy or affiliation. Not sure what's going on with this in inner cities, but many in rural areas don't feel their risk is very high given their more open surroundings. For others, yes, it has a more political motivation. But meanwhile, vaccination rates have recently improved in the US, presumably due to the information being widely disseminated about the highly contagious nature of the Delta variant.

Venting your (understandable) frustration by stereotyping, politicizing, and therefore potentially ostracizing may be personally satisfying but is counterproductive towards the end goal in my view. This can only lead to scapegoating which can be dangerous.

[boatman61]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/othe...?ocid=msedgntp

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Exile

Not all that are reluctant to get vaccinated are "anti-vaxxers." The pushback is not confined to any particular country or even region, and has many different reasons. In the US, for example, the two largest groups of unvaccinated are rural conservatives and inner city minorities. Hardly two groups that share political philosophy or affiliation. Not sure what's going on with this in inner cities, but many in rural areas don't feel their risk is very high given their more open surroundings. For others, yes, it has a more political motivation. But meanwhile, vaccination rates have recently improved in the US, presumably due to the information being widely disseminated about the highly contagious nature of the Delta variant.



Venting your (understandable) frustration by stereotyping, politicizing, and therefore potentially ostracizing may be personally satisfying but is counterproductive towards the end goal in my view. This can only lead to scapegoating which can be dangerous.

I think you miss my point

Rational dissent is entirely to be welcomed.

Dissent based on elaborate conspiracy theories , political viewpoints or information gleaned from Facebook friends is simply derisible

Secondly dissent solely based on attempting to show the other side is wrong rather then expounding through merits of ones own decision is bothering on the ridiculous when most people can clearly see, in this case, the vaccines are effective.

This is especially true when such dissent hinders our ability to put this pandemic behind us.

In this many political leaders like Trump and Macron are entirely guilty of misleading the general public and sowing ridiculous concepts and misinformation, ( like this is some form of “ cold” or minor flu ) in many cases converting a scientific argument into a political football.

I not interested in ostracisation, I’m of the view that the rise in social media disinformation must be met at every turn , must be called out , even to the point where the argument becomes hopelessly muddled because that at least cuts of the amplification factor.

Too many proper debates have be derailed by conspiracy theorists , fake science and deliberate obfuscation while the reasonable side of the debate has remained quiet.

This is the time to challenge all this. To call out the nonsense and at least deny the deniers from having the airwaves to themselves. let’s point our finger to them and say “ sorry the emperor actually has no clothes on “

Most of this phenomenon is a function of our debased 24 hour “ news” cycle. Media now presents all sorts of alternative views as if they have equal weight. Our democracy is actually challenged by these fabrications and lies and they must not go without challenge

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Exile

Not all that are reluctant to get vaccinated are "anti-vaxxers."

Let me guess.. You are not vaccinated?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Exile

Not all that are reluctant to get vaccinated are "anti-vaxxers." The pushback is not confined to any particular country or even region, and has many different reasons. In the US, for example, the two largest groups of unvaccinated are rural conservatives and inner city minorities. Hardly two groups that share political philosophy or affiliation. Not sure what's going on with this in inner cities, but many in rural areas don't feel their risk is very high given their more open surroundings. For others, yes, it has a more political motivation. But meanwhile, vaccination rates have recently improved in the US, presumably due to the information being widely disseminated about the highly contagious nature of the Delta variant.

I can't really understand your logic here. Regardless of the reason, what else is someone that is opposed to, reluctant, to or resistant to getting the vaccine other than anti-vax?

Originally Posted by Exile

Venting your (understandable) frustration by stereotyping, politicizing, and therefore potentially ostracizing may be personally satisfying but is counterproductive towards the end goal in my view. This can only lead to scapegoating which can be dangerous.

OK, venting frustration may not be productive but on the other hand, one of the common reasons given by anti vaxers, the radical right, the anti gun control groups in the US and others is something along the lines of "those mean old liberals didn't ask me nicely".

At some point there is no point in polite discourse so maybe there is some justification in blunt discourse?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

What’s Behind the COVID Jab Narrative?



Cummins’ primary concern with the COVID-19 injections is that the benefit is basically nonexistent for healthy people under the age of 60. He cites data from Israel, where the vast majority of the population has been injected with the Pfizer mRNA con
coction, that unvaccinated and “vaccinated” have the same infection rate, regardless of age. Empirical data from other countries also reveal the injections have no effect on transmission.

This is simply a false claim. Data from the U.K. shows that in the middle of the vaccine program 2/3 of hospitalisation were unvaccinated

Ultimately with full vaccination of course all hospital patients will be vaccinated.

“The pharma companies did acknowledge it may not affect transmission,” he says. “Mechanistically, it shouldn't really affect transmission. And the real-world data say it doesn't. So, the push to vaccinate is not based on any science, really, at all. It's just based on a desire. And you've got to question that desire.

Nope that’s not what they said. At the outset they says they hoped it would reduce transmission , but they had no data at that point. They did not “ admit “ it would not affect transmission they actually opined the opposite

Subsequently data has and is showing that the vaccine substantially reduces transmission

What is the obsession with trying to get everyone vaccinated? I feel that part of it has to do with profiteering and pharma influence, obviously. Part of it has to do with justifying a vaccine passport or permits.

Err , the push to vaccine everyone is to artificially accelerate herd immunity or the general populations ability to withstand the virus without serious illness or death and an ancillary desire to prevent health services fron being overwhelmed. The passport is merely a standardised means to show that has occurred largely so people can travel abroad.

And part of it, I think, is that there's a fear that having a substantial control group, say 20%, 30% of people who are not vaccinated, will clearly show that the unvaccinated, unless they've got particular medical conditions, really are no worse off and are not causing transmission. So, I think there is a desire now to eliminate the control group.

This is a bit like arguing that we should allow a certain group to drive with no speed limits to show that speed limits saves lives.

We know the vaccine prevents infection , reduces illness and largely eliminates deaths from COVID. We don’t need an extraneous “ control “ group to point that out. We have already had that group , it was the world in 2020

A control group shows that your medication or your lockdown isn’t so hot. So, I think that's another driver. A bit of desperation is coming in to get rid of the control group and just get everyone vaccinated, and then you can't see the signal anymore.”

Now that’s just tinfoil hat logic.

Official Control Groups Have Been Eliminated



This is in fact precisely what Moderna and Pfizer have done: Both have eliminated the original control groups in their initial COVID injection trials by giving controls the real mRNA shot. This was done even though the trials are officially ongoing for another two years. So, they have already eliminated the control groups in the trials against which to assess the effectiveness and safety of these injections. Cummins comments:



“The whole thing is kind of a sham, and you don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to say it's a sham. Basically, elementary science has been inverted, turned upside down, macerated, flushed down the urinal. And that's without even getting into complicated stuff. It's crazy.

Phizer ran an orthodox placebo group , 10 of that group developed COVID while only 1 developed it in the vaccinated group.

I mean, most people don't even realize it's under emergency use authorization (EUA). A guy in Ireland went to seven pharmacies and asked them the question, ‘What's the risk to my 20-year-old daughter from COVID? And what's the risk of side effects from the medication?’ And they couldn't really answer.



Pretty much all of them said emphatically, ‘This is fully tested.’ He showed them the documentation, that it's emergency use only. It's not fully [approved]. And they were kind of surprised. So even all the people administering [the COVID injections] are just not aware of any of the facts, it appears.



The pharmacists in question thought side effects were 1 in hundreds of thousands. But the Johnson & Johnson leaflet that this guy brought in showed up to 1 in 10,000 chance of a serious clot in brain, lymph or spleen, et cetera.



So, they weren't even really aware of the contents of the leaflet … So, there's no informed consent because the person administering [the injection] doesn't understand the [risks], and certainly the person getting it doesn't.”

Two things

Firstly in Ireland pharmacies have no hand act or part in the vaccine rollout , they don’t give out the vaccine either, nor were they any more informed then the general public.

All vaccines were delivered to large dedicated centres plus a small number of GP surgeries , the GP surgeries were only used for the initial very elderly group.

When I went for my shots there were very knowledgable people fully briefed and backed up by leaflets etc they clearly spelt out the reported side effects and risks.

NIAC which approved the vaccines in Ireland , did so on the back of the general approval by the European Medicines Agency. The EMA was a conditional approval but it was not an emergency approval. Only individual EU states can give emergency approval , this is what the U.K. did under the then EU processes it was subject to in Dec 2020. Only the U.K. did that.

In Ireland NIAC changed the rules of who could get it due to reported side effects. They were extremely cautious much to the frustration of the government, who could not intervene. The radio and media were full of debates about side effects. You had it day and night on the media. Anyone who bothered knew all about blood clouts are so forth.

Despite this media coverage ( or maybe because of it ) vaccine hesitancy is below 6% here and falling with some predictions that it will be as low as 2%. Young people are registering in droves.

So whatever this “ guy in Ireland “ did he could NOT have shown them emergency approval documentation for Ireland as it didn’t exist.


The whole story just sounds concocted and utterly false.

( the Johnson vaccine was only administered to a very small cohort largely because Ireland had an excess of vaccine , we just sent 400,000 AZ dozes to the third world program.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

This stupid measures have to end now. Everybody, who wanted the shot got his shot, there is no waiting list any more, you show up and get your poison.

Anything beyond is personal risk. If you WANT to wear a mask, wear it, if you WANT another shot, get it. If you don't want anything of all, live your life.

There is no need for the society to enforce protection, those who don't care, don't care anyway. The young generation organize corona parties in the mean time to get infected and prevent the shots, when someone of the crowd gets tested positive, like in France.

Travel restrictions are BS, the virus is everywhere, it does not matter if you go to the supermarket or fly to Timbuktu. There is no virus free area, and it doesn't matter where you get it. Borders and border controls with tests cannot prevent a spread, because it is there on both sides of the border. You get tested negative and infected at the exit of the Airport by the taxi driver. This measures only work in the beginning of a Pandemic, once there is a spread, they are ineffective, containment is not possible any more.

Restaurants, Bars, Events for vaccinated only is also totaly stupid, as they can spread the virus too, and meet other people outside of this venues. This restrictions are just a placebo to show off the power of the governments and force the needles into more arms and bully the unvaccinated. They do not prevent any spread.

It is totally silly to FORCE health care workers to get vaccinated, they were unprotected while they care for covid patients in the past, either they had it already or they are immune naturally.

It's time to get back control of our lives and stop this stupidity. You are vaccinated, good for you. Wear masks if you want to or not. Not vaccinated and afraid of the virus - get the shot or stay home, self-isolate and wear mask, unvaxxed and not afraid - live your life, maybe get the C19 cold for a couple of days, stay home and after that off you go again.

We have to put an end of this and go back to normal life. The demonstrations in some countries are very promising, people are fed up with this scaremongering.

Very interesting scientific evidence that was not published yet is, that the LGBTQ community is immune to covid, as we see the CSD celebrations in Berlin not bothered by the police, but demonstrations against the measures are prohibited with massive pollice interventions.

There are so many holes and fallacies in your arguments it's hard to know where to begin. Perhaps I should begin by stating that I have numerous friends and family that are doctors and nurses who see first hand how serious Covid is and experience first hand the risk to themselves and their families from exposure to Covid patients. To call this a C19 cold is so wrong, such a complete lie that it is almost beyond believe. Tell the 600,000 + Americans that died from Covid that it was just a cold. And by the way, since the many friends and family I have in health care can all confirm from first hand that these deaths are real, really due to Covid and not exaggerated. In fact, if anything they are underreported. In the state of Florida I personally know of Covid deaths that were never listed as such in state reports due to intentional manipulation of the facts by the governor of Florida.

Regarding your other arguments I think the simplest thing to point out is that living in modern society must and indeed does come with many rules and restrictions on what one can do and things that one must do to be a member of that society.

Some obvious examples:

You can't drive that car 90 mph down a city street or through school zone. Why not, it's your decision on whether or not to risk injury to yourself if you wreck the car. Well clearly why not because you endanger the lives of others by an irresponsible action.

Many states in the US have mandatory seat belt laws. Don't wear one you get a ticket. But shouldn't it be your choice to wear one or not? In this case it risks only your own life? Same with helmet laws on motorcycles.

I could go on and on and on but I doubt it will make any difference.

[Dockhead]

For Northern Europeans, or those who have affinity for Northern Europe, there is a great series on Netflix about Iceland -- Katla.


Iceland is a bizarre and wonderful place. I cruised the East coast of Iceland from one end to the other, and back -- and didn't see one single other yacht. No vessels other than fishing boats.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Anders

Let me guess.. You are not vaccinated?

April 4, 2021. J&J one-shot & done vax. No blood clotting. Try not to personalize otherwise forthright discussions about an important issue.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I think you miss my point

Rational dissent is entirely to be welcomed.

Dissent based on elaborate conspiracy theories , political viewpoints or information gleaned from Facebook friends is simply derisible

Secondly dissent solely based on attempting to show the other side is wrong rather then expounding through merits of ones own decision is bothering on the ridiculous when most people can clearly see, in this case, the vaccines are effective.

This is especially true when such dissent hinders our ability to put this pandemic behind us.

In this many political leaders like Trump and Macron are entirely guilty of misleading the general public and sowing ridiculous concepts and misinformation, ( like this is some form of “ cold” or minor flu ) in many cases converting a scientific argument into a political football.

I not interested in ostracisation, I’m of the view that the rise in social media disinformation must be met at every turn , must be called out , even to the point where the argument becomes hopelessly muddled because that at least cuts of the amplification factor.

Too many proper debates have be derailed by conspiracy theorists , fake science and deliberate obfuscation while the reasonable side of the debate has remained quiet.

This is the time to challenge all this. To call out the nonsense and at least deny the deniers from having the airwaves to themselves. let’s point our finger to them and say “ sorry the emperor actually has no clothes on “

Most of this phenomenon is a function of our debased 24 hour “ news” cycle. Media now presents all sorts of alternative views as if they have equal weight. Our democracy is actually challenged by these fabrications and lies and they must not go without challenge

Who gets to decide all of these distinctions between what you deem rational and therefore valid dissent, and that which you claim (and may be correct) is so misleading and contemptible? It sounds like you have it all figured out but, especially given your obvious political bias, there will surely be others who will undoubtedly disagree. It can be a fine line between curtailing speech which someone decides is irresponsible and potentially even harmful, and speech which is suppressed because it's simply contrary to someone else's opinion. How do you propose we accomplish this without infringing on civil liberties? The answer is, and should be, to allow and encourage more speech not less, all in the hope that people will come to the right answer on their own. I know, maybe not always realistic in an age when social media has replaced the public square, but this is simply one of the costs we have to endure for the privilege of living in societies which place a high premium on such liberties.

We've almost put this pandemic behind us. Let's not top it all off with a dose of authoritarianism and the dissension it will inevitably bring.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by skipmac

I can't really understand your logic here. Regardless of the reason, what else is someone that is opposed to, reluctant, to or resistant to getting the vaccine other than anti-vax?

My understanding is that an "anti-vaxxer" refers to someone who opposes vaccines generally, not just the CV-19 ones. There are many different reasons why people are resistant to getting the CV-19 vaccines, not only because they oppose all vaccines.


OK, venting frustration may not be productive but on the other hand, one of the common reasons given by anti vaxers, the radical right, the anti gun control groups in the US and others is something along the lines of "those mean old liberals didn't ask me nicely".

At some point there is no point in polite discourse so maybe there is some justification in blunt discourse?

Seems like a lot of people are going with that excuse these days. I don't see much justification for it, except the lack of accountability social media provides.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Exile

Seems like a lot of people are going with that excuse these days. I don't see much justification for it, except the lack of accountability social media provides.

For the purposes of this specific discussion I think it valid to think of anti-vaxxers in general and those that specifically oppose the Covid vaccine. I think you or anyone that looks at the situation openly would have to agree that the Covid vaccine specifically has been politicized and that is the reason for much (no not all) of the opposition to the Covid vaccine.

Of course some oppose it because it is not fully approved by the FDA (which seems to be coming very soon) and I have a relative that opposes the Covid vaccine because it contains an alien AI tracker chip. I am not joking and there are many that believe this.

Also I do agree that the anonymity and to some degree the dehumanization of internet and social media discussions frequently leads to rude and irrational arguments and demonization of the other side. Don't like it, try not to do it but that's an undeniable aspect of the way it has evolved.

That being said, at some point where does one draw the line and say polite discourse and rational arguments are no longer an option. I am all for working together, compromise, bipartisan action and more but I will not compromise nor work with white supremacists, any groups of any political persuasion that promote and advocate violence, etc.

So how does this relate to the Covid discussion? Well I see no compromise with those that claim the vaccine is an alien conspiracy. I will try to maintain polite and rational discussion with those that claim wearing a mask or getting a vaccine violates his/her rights although that argument is completely specious.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

CatNewBee writes sheer nonsense

* U.K. data shows that the vaccines inhibits the spread of the virus significantly

* U.K. data shows the unvaccinated are the majority in hospital with 66% ,

* U.K. data shows that the vaccine prevents significant illness

“
“If fully vaccinated, the risk of being hospitalised falls by about 90%,” said Prof David Spiegelhalter, chair of the Winton Centre for Risk and Evidence Communication, at Cambridge University. “

Whatever way you look at the data the vaccines are incredibly effective

Are they perfect no , there will always be “ breakthrough “ infections that doesn’t mean the vaccine isn’t working it is.

Public health measure are effective , we have seen that , lockdowns served to break the rise of infections almost everywhere they were used. It’s not pretty , but they worked

Your rights stop at my nose.
Or put another way , if you carry a significant infectious disease that has serious consequences you your personal freedoms don’t override my right not to be placed in danger by your freedoms.

That’s always been the overriding policy of public health


Let’s leave the conspiracy nut jobs , government power grabs etc etc outside the door for the looney fringe to scream about , it’s utter nonsense

( it always amuses me that conspiracy nut jobs will proclaim the government is incompetent at every turn then argue the very same organisation is capable of organising and executing a complex global control conspiracy !!!)

By the way CatNewBee I know loads of people who got colds , I’ve never seen anyone be as sick with anything like they were sick with COVID. Nor do I know colds that killed people

it’s no f-ing cold that’s for sure don’t belittle those that died or got seriously sick by comparing COVID to the common cold thank you.

All bla bla, if your vaccine is working, you have nothing to fear. No matter how infected someone else might be.

If it doesnt work, you are a spreader too, but then who cares if vaccinated or not.

Calling disagreeing people conspiracy theorist simply show you have no valid arguments.