Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

All bla bla, if your vaccine is working, you have nothing to fear. No matter how infected someone else might be.

If it doesnt work, you are a spreader too, but then who cares if vaccinated or not.

Calling disagreeing people conspiracy theorist simply show you have no valid arguments.

Since this pandemic is only a couple of years in progress the knowledge and data is constantly growing. However based on the latest research and data there is a small but non zero risk of fully vaccinated people for developing Covid. Most of the vaccinated have very mild and often asymptomatic cases but a very small percentage develop serious cases. So even if the vaccine is working (and ALL data shows that it is), there is still something to fear.

Regarding your second comment, who cares if vaccinated or not? Again, most recent data shows that fully vaccinated people can become infectioous to others. In my case I care because: my wife who has secondary health risks and Covid might kill her, also two other close family members one with serious lung problems that would almost certainly die if infected, my two small grandchildren who are too young for the vaccine but not too young to catch Covid.

Finally, labeling others as conspiracy theorists does not per se mean that person has no valid arguments. The labeling might be wrong, rude or impolite or it could be valid as in the case of my QAnon following relative.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Interesting question.


People are sick and tired of even mild measures like masking and are desperate to get back to normal life.


HOWEVER, how many people haven't had even a sniffle since the pandemic started, and how cool is that? I think once people get over this phase and start to forget about the harsh measures, we might really see masking and hand hygiene and a bit of social distancing continue -- on a voluntary basis.

As usual, you nailed it DH
For many years living in Asia, where personal space in crowded cities was not required. People wore masks during Flu season if they had sniffles, or just a precaution
We westerners were too dumb to recognize the benefits, so I hope there is a concentrated effort to change our mindsets to a more proactive attitude

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Since this pandemic is only a couple of years in progress the knowledge and data is constantly growing. However based on the latest research and data there is a small but non zero risk of fully vaccinated people for developing Covid. Most of the vaccinated have very mild and often asymptomatic cases but a very small percentage develop serious cases. So even if the vaccine is working (and ALL data shows that it is), there is still something to fear.

Regarding your second comment, who cares if vaccinated or not? Again, most recent data shows that fully vaccinated people can become infectioous to others. In my case I care because: my wife who has secondary health risks and Covid might kill her, also two other close family members one with serious lung problems that would almost certainly die if infected, my two small grandchildren who are too young for the vaccine but not too young to catch Covid.

Finally, labeling others as conspiracy theorists does not per se mean that person has no valid arguments. The labeling might be wrong, rude or impolite or it could be valid as in the case of my QAnon following relative.

You are somewhat right, most unvaccinated have too mild or unsymtomatic cases, that's why most are surprised by a positive test they did not expect, the cases are so high because we test so many, not because so many are sick. Both vaccinated and unvaccinated with mild infection have something in common - a perfectly working immune system.

Being in a room with covid infected (vaccinated or not people) and not getting covid is another sign of an even better working immune system, vaccinated or not - there are many examples of families or couples where only one partner shows symptoms and the other don't get it at all.

The vaccinated have to admit, that there is natural immunity, and a healthy person with a good immune system does not need a shot to be protected, the risk from the vaccine outweights the benefits for this category.

As long as there is no honest discussion about it and only scaremongering, the vaccine proponents cannot be taken serious, bacause they act crazy.

If the publications about the vaccines are true and there is nothing else in them - the shot just kicks the immune system as an infection would do, and YOUR immune system responds and learns to handle anything with spikes, like it ywould do if exposed to the virus. Your claim is that the mRNA or the Adenovirus vector disappears after a week and only the immune system remembers somewhat the infection. This is what happens on a real exposure too, healthy people (99% of the population) do not develop serious symptoms, that require hospitalization, as they do not develop serious long lasting side effects to the vaccine, but the risk is there.

The only solution is to protect the vulnerable by offering vaccinations, like the yearly flu shot. It is not mandated, and nobody cares if you had the flu, got the shot and nobody requests a test or prove you don't have it.

It is just a mass hystery about that human developed thing out of control (or maybe even intentionally released, who knows?)

You can protect yourself, your family can get the shots too. What's the point on how someone's immune system reacts on the virus exposure, trained by a shot or by nature, this person with a weak immune system will need hospitalization or can even die, even vaccinated - and the other can even not develop any symptoms, like many young unvaccinated kids.

The decision is as individual as the risk assessment and the immune system preconditions. There should not be a push to inject something unnecessary or more risky, keep it for the vulnerable in need.

You can decide only for your own body to get the shot or not.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by skipmac

So even if the vaccine is working (and ALL data shows that it is), there is still something to fear.

FEAR - Thats just MSM propaganda - You are fully vaccinated and are still fearful? Jeeze there are plenty of more likely things that will kill the average Joe, Like Sugar, are you all fearful of that too? You probably would be if the media and Polis ran a fear campaign against it.


Why don't we start restricting everything that has an infinitesimal chance of killing you?



You all need to stop running around in fear and get out and enjoy life before one of the debilitating chronic illnesses that are plaguing the Western world comes knocking on your door.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

You are somewhat right, most unvaccinated have too mild or unsymtomatic cases, that's why most are surprised by a positive test they did notch expect, the cases are so high because we test so many, not because so many are sick. Both vaccinated and unvaccinated with mild infection have something in common - a perfectly working immune system.

False fact

Being in a room with covid infected (vaccinated or not people) and not getting covid is another sign of an even better working immune system, vaccinated or not - there are many examples of families or couples where only one partner shows symptoms and the other don't get it at all.

Yes this is often the case , there are loads of reasons why some people get infected and others don’t. It’s not down purely to immune response . It itself it’s not indicative of anything

The vaccinated have to admit, that there is natural immunity, and a healthy person with a good immune system does not need a shot to be protected, the risk from the vaccine outweights the benefits for this category.

This is just nonsense and pedaling a dangerous fallacy , loads of people with perfectly healthy functioning immune systems got very severe COVID infections and many died.

Don’t trivialize this disease

As long as there is no honest discussion about it and only scaremongering, the vaccine proponents cannot be taken serious, bacause they act crazy.

Comments like that suggest the crazies you mention aren’t alone

If the publications about the vaccines are true and there is nothing else in them - the shot just kicks the immune system as an infection would do, and YOUR immune system responds and learns to handle anything with spikes, like it ywould do if exposed to the virus. Your claim is that the mRNA or the Adenovirus vector disappears after a week and only the immune system remembers somewhat the infection.

The mRNA works differently, it programs your cells to produce spike proteins , this wakes up your immune system and hence it’s preloaded if you come in contact with the actual virus. The end result is the same as normal vaccines but achieved in a novel way.

This is what happens on a real exposure too, healthy people (99% of the population) do not develop serious symptoms, that require hospitalization, as they do not develop serious long lasting side effects to the vaccine, but the risk is there.

Yes and no, the novel coronavirus is dangerous because the virus is largely coated in a construction that evades detection ( I’m simplifying ) the spike protein is the only exposed part.

Left on its own with no previous exposure COVID 19 would have run riot through the population killing even more then have already died

Of course to you healthy people that died from COVID are just an inconvenience

The only solution is to protect the vulnerable by offering vaccinations, like the yearly flu shot. It is not mandated, and nobody cares if you had the flu, got the shot and nobody requests a test or prove you don't have it.

Given sufficient viral load, anyone can contract a very serious and potentially deadly dose of COVID , and the delta variant has made much younger people very ill . Everyone is “ vulnerable” it just depends on viral load.

It is just a mass hystery about that human developed thing out of control (or maybe even intentionally released, who knows?)

No thankfully only a few QAnon nut jobs.

You can protect yourself, your family can get the shots too. What's the point on how someone's immune system reacts on the virus exposure, trained by a shot or by nature, this person with a weak immune system will need hospitalization or can even die, even vaccinated - and the other can even not develop any symptoms, like many young unvaccinated kids.

The decision is as individual as the risk assessment and the immune system preconditions. There should not be a push to inject something unnecessary or more risky, keep it for the vulnerable in need.

You can decide only for your own body to get the shot or not.

This is a dangerous fallacy . COVID is transmissible on a scale never seen before aided by the ease by which people move long distances easily.

If you don’t vaccinate you give the virus more hosts , more chance to replicate and hence more variants.

You HAVE TO success transmissibility, either by social distancing restrictions or deploying vaccines which DO limit transmission

The also reduce serious illness ,

The vulnerable group is in effect everyone , hence vaccines will be needed each year administered to everyone until such time as Covid effectively mutates into a less sickening version ( which is what eventually happen )

Of course you get to decide whether or not you take the shot. Society of course decides collectively what freedoms to give you or remove from you as a result of your decision. Basically decisions have consequences.

[Wotname]

Meanwhile down under

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPNYx1FP8Qk

[Exile]

The Jacobsen case -- decided by the US Supreme Court in 1905 -- has been cited by Dockhead a number of times. It upheld mandatory smallpox vaccinations by a US state. Pretty good analysis here:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/new-y...113833108.html

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by UFO

FEAR - Thats just MSM propaganda - You are fully vaccinated and are still fearful? Jeeze there are plenty of more likely things that will kill the average Joe, Like Sugar, are you all fearful of that too? You probably would be if the media and Polis ran a fear campaign against it.


Why don't we start restricting everything that has an infinitesimal chance of killing you?



You all need to stop running around in fear and get out and enjoy life before one of the debilitating chronic illnesses that are plaguing the Western world comes knocking on your door.

First of all, read carefully. I said there is something to fear, not that I was personally experiencing fear. Indeed I would posit that very few are truly afraid but instead aware of the risks and want to take simple, effective precautions to minimize the risks.

Your characterization of the risks being infinitesimal I think is is a bit optimistic. While not huge 600,000 dead in the USA alone argues that the risks are higher than infinitesimal. Also the risks, as I clearly mentioned, are much greater for those around us that are not vaccinated due to age or other legitimate reasons and those around us with serious secondary health risks. As someone that is fully vaccinated my risks of dying are very small, one might even say infinitesimal. However I have three immediate family members that have significant health issues that, even though vaccinated, could easily die if they are one of the break through infections. I also have grandchildren too young for the vaccine that I do not want to risk.

And yes, thank you for your suggestion. I already take reasonable steps to minimize other risks to my health. I exercise, eat healthy, drink very moderately, don't smoke and do my best to avoid people that aren't vaccinated and those that refuse to wear a mask.

[laird]

The latest warning that we have had here (UK) ,our bosses have warned the maintenance guys that the Anti vaxer are putting up anti posters with concealed razor blades in them

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

False fact



Yes this is often the case , there are loads of reasons why some people get infected and others don’t. It’s not down purely to immune response . It itself it’s not indicative of anything




This is just nonsense and pedaling a dangerous fallacy , loads of people with perfectly healthy functioning immune systems got very severe COVID infections and many died.

Don’t trivialize this disease


Comments like that suggest the crazies you mention aren’t alone



The mRNA works differently, it programs your cells to produce spike proteins , this wakes up your immune system and hence it’s preloaded if you come in contact with the actual virus. The end result is the same as normal vaccines but achieved in a novel way.


Yes and no, the novel coronavirus is dangerous because the virus is largely coated in a construction that evades detection ( I’m simplifying ) the spike protein is the only exposed part.

Left on its own with no previous exposure COVID 19 would have run riot through the population killing even more then have already died

Of course to you healthy people that died from COVID are just an inconvenience



Given sufficient viral load, anyone can contract a very serious and potentially deadly dose of COVID , and the delta variant has made much younger people very ill . Everyone is “ vulnerable” it just depends on viral load.


No thankfully only a few QAnon nut jobs.



This is a dangerous fallacy . COVID is transmissible on a scale never seen before aided by the ease by which people move long distances easily.

If you don’t vaccinate you give the virus more hosts , more chance to replicate and hence more variants.

You HAVE TO success transmissibility, either by social distancing restrictions or deploying vaccines which DO limit transmission

The also reduce serious illness ,

The vulnerable group is in effect everyone , hence vaccines will be needed each year administered to everyone until such time as Covid effectively mutates into a less sickening version ( which is what eventually happen )

Of course you get to decide whether or not you take the shot. Society of course decides collectively what freedoms to give you or remove from you as a result of your decision. Basically decisions have consequences.

Fake news.

Meanwhile there are findings in different countries, that the viral load in fully vaccinated people is at least as high as in not vaccinated people. So the vaccination does not stop the transmission.

It may or may not protect you, but for sure doesn't end the spread.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Fake news.

Meanwhile there are findings in different countries, that the viral load in fully vaccinated people is at least as high as in not vaccinated people. So the vaccination does not stop the transmission.

It may or may not protect you, but for sure doesn't end the spread.

From the CDC

“A growing body of evidence indicates that people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others. However, the risk for SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infection in fully vaccinated people cannot be completely eliminated as long as there is continued community transmission of the virus.”

From a different cdc report

“Vaccines remain highly effective at preventing severe disease, breakthrough infections and disease among vaccinated individuals remain uncommon, and most of the new COVID-19 cases in the U.S. are among unvaccinated people.”

The issue is that when a break through infection occurs , the viral load is similar between vaccinated and unvaccinated

This convenient “ statement” ignores two striking facts

First unvaccinated people are far more likely to acquire a significant viral load

Secondly unvaccinated with such a viral load are much more likely to have a more serious disease then then unvaccinated

Vaccines protect you and reduce the risk of transmission.

This is simply undeniable based on facts over the last 6 months and it’s becoming even more significant as we collect more data.


Anti Vaxxers and COVID deniers peddle the idea that the vaccines are doing little. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Thankfully most people are ignoring them as the fake news propagandists they are.

[Exile]

What's a "Covid denier?" I wasn't aware that anyone -- whether opposed to vaccines or not -- actually denied the existence of Covid-19 and the pandemic. Or is this just another way of shaming and ostracizing people who oppose getting the vaccine? Surely you appreciate there are a variety of reasons why such people may be unwilling, with the more extreme conspiracy theorists, etc. only a subset (and probably a minor one at that). I think this approach will only harden and maybe even entrench such views, as it's done in the climate change debate. Instead, continued publicity, education, full FDA approval in the US, and a natural desire to get back to normal will (hopefully) carry the day. I fear your approach will only feed the growing politicization, hardly confined to the US as is being reported.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Exile

What's a "Covid denier?" ...

Virus deniers, anti-maskers, & vaccine skeptics:
In what seems to be a parallel universe, some people actually doubt that COVID-19 exists at all. [IIRC ± 13% of Americans], believing that it is a myth, created by some powerful forces, or non-existent government agency.
Others understand that it exists, but think its effects have been greatly exaggerated.
They see masks as a form of oppression, a symbol of weakness. Remember that public health experts delivered inconsistent messaging, about wearing masks early on in the pandemic, which led to justified confusion, and skepticism.
They are often the same group who think that freedom of speech means freedom from criticism, or consequences.
Covid deniers are not victims, nor are they unfairly persecuted for being COVID deniers; they simply can’t spew their misinformation, without being de-bunked, and criticized for it.

Such criticism is NOT "suppression" nor "Cancel Culture".



An interesting article, on the subject:

“It’s Not Vaccine Hesitancy. It’s COVID-19 Denialism” ~ by David A. Graham

... the pattern of resistance to the coronavirus vaccines looks less like COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy and more like COVID-19 denialism. While a significant chunk of Americans profess to be uneasy about getting shots to prevent COVID-19, most come from the swath of the population that has tended to downplay the disease’s severity and to resist other measures to fight it, rather than the swaths that have resisted vaccines for other diseases ...

Here ➥ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ialism/618724/

[Exile]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Virus deniers, anti-maskers, & vaccine skeptics:
In what seems to be a parallel universe, some people actually doubt that COVID-19 exists at all. [IIRC ± 13% of Americans], believing that it is a myth, created by some powerful forces, or non-existent government agency.
Others understand that it exists, but think its effects have been greatly exaggerated.
They see masks as a form of oppression, a symbol of weakness. Remember that public health experts delivered inconsistent messaging, about wearing masks early on in the pandemic, which led to justified confusion, and skepticism.
They are often the same group who think that freedom of speech means freedom from criticism, or consequences.
Covid deniers are not victims, nor are they unfairly persecuted for being COVID deniers; they simply can’t spew their misinformation, without being de-bunked, and criticized for it.


An interesting article, on the subject:

“It’s Not Vaccine Hesitancy. It’s COVID-19 Denialism” ~ by David A. Graham
Here ➥ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ialism/618724/

Does your article from the Atlantic mention the large amount of hesitancy amongst minorities in US inner cities and people living in rural areas, or does it conveniently focus solely on young conservatives? (I only skimmed it). If so, then it sounds rather partisan, no?

I don't find it credible that the number of people who deny the existence of the virus itself is significant. Which is exactly why, of course, they are lumped in with those who have more rational reasons for being hesitant or have religious or other valid objections. This is exactly what was done in the climate change debate, not to help educate or persuade but to label and stereotype under one enemy banner for political gain. This is not only false on its face, it's highly counterproductive towards most of our shared goals of putting this pandemic behind us. There may be no hope for the conspiracists, but let's not further alienate people who may have more rational reasons for being reluctant, and who can therefore be swayed without being demonized.

[GordMay]

Dr. Anthony Fauci: Get vaccinated to stop risk of an even deadlier COVID variant
Dr. Anthony Fauci tells the USA TODAY Editorial Board ...

... Q. When you were with us last time you expressed frustration with people who were COVID deniers. How are you feeling about this hardcore recalcitrant group? Are you surprised at how big it is?

A. I'm fundamentally a very tolerant person and I accept and deal with people who are seemingly doing things that are really quite unreasonable. I don't have negative feelings toward them. I feel badly for them that they are being misled. I don't want to get into the politics, but sometimes you almost have to. It's all part of this propagation of almost an alternative reality.
It went back to the days when I was on the task force in the Trump administration: “This is going to go away. It doesn't really exist; don't worry about it.” ...

Dr. Fauci Interview ➥ https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...te/5507400001/