Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I used my COVID QR three times today alone ? .........

What is your COVID QR?
I know what COVID is, I know what QR is and here we use QR codes for a variety of COVID related applications but I remain unsure what you are referring to.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Wotname

What is your COVID QR?
I know what COVID is, I know what QR is and here we use QR codes for a variety of COVID related applications but I remain unsure what you are referring to.

The Eu Digital Covid pass , has a QR with the details of your vaccines in it , I need it currently to travel , or eat or drink indoor in pubs and restaurants

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The Eu Digital Covid pass , has a QR with the details of your vaccines in it , I need it currently to travel , or eat or drink indoor in pubs and restaurants

OK, now I understand.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The Eu Digital Covid pass , has a QR with the details of your vaccines in it , I need it currently to travel , or eat or drink indoor in pubs and restaurants

With a digital signature to prevent fakes.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

In any case, we can't formulate an idea of policy without knowing what we are aiming for -- what is the goal?

Here is a superbly nuanced piece on exactly this question, from today's NYT:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/30/o...id-policy.html

No answers, just a lot of questions. But really penchant, really relevant ones.

It's a warning not to fail to think about these things.

I think formulating goals is a critical consideration, as well as having well thought out plans of achieving them (hopefully formulated beforehand in anticipation of a crisis) and also having the capacity and sheer grit to carry them out, even if not politically favourable and even if not in purely in accordance with certain medical advice.

I started writing that the difficult thing in this case is that the goals are shifting and evolving as we know more about the virus, its effects and the effects of vaccination and treatment.

I scrapped that.

The goal was initially clear. If eradication is not possible (and with a mutating coronavirus this has always seemed extremely unlikely) there is little reason to deviate from it. Most countries, even Australia initially, discussed that the aim was to “flatten the curve”. ie To put appropriate measures in place to keep hospitalisations at a level that could be handled so that deaths could be minimised, whilst minimally adversely impacting other factors.

I think Sweden was one of the few countries that has stuck to this goal using measures that were sustainable long term. The goals are either not defined or they are shifting all over the place elsewhere.

One problem is that apart from political considerations, medical advice has driven much of the response to the pandemic and this has unfortunately given a very skewed perspective. Medical goals are to save every life possible.

This pandemic is not just a medical problem. Economic, educational and even psychological impacts need to be considered, both of the virus and how we deal with it. All this will impact the quality of life and even the health of people for years if not decades to come, ultimately affecting quantity of life as well, particularly for the young.

SWL

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I think formulating goals is a critical consideration, as well as having well thought out plans of achieving them (hopefully formulated beforehand in anticipation of a crisis) and also having the capacity and sheer grit to carry them out, even if not politically favourable and even if not in purely in accordance with certain medical advice.

I started writing that the difficult thing in this case is that the goals are shifting and evolving as we know more about the virus, its effects and the effects of vaccination and treatment.

I scrapped that.

The goal was initially clear. If eradication is not possible (and with a mutating coronavirus this has always seemed extremely unlikely) there is little reason to deviate from it. Most countries, even Australia initially, discussed that the aim was to “flatten the curve”. ie To put appropriate measures in place to keep hospitalisations at a level that could be handled so that deaths could be minimised, whilst minimally adversely impacting other factors.

I think Sweden was one of the few countries that has stuck to this goal using measures that were sustainable long term. The goals are either not defined or they are shifting all over the place elsewhere.

One problem is that apart from political considerations, medical advice has driven much of the response to the pandemic and this has unfortunately given a very skewed perspective. This pandemic is not just a medical problem. Economic, educational and even psychological impacts need to be considered, both of the virus and how we deal with it. All this will impact the quality of life and even the health of people for years if not decades to come, ultimately affecting quantity of life as well, particularly for the young.

SWL

This is a really good post. It's amazing how we lose our collective heads and lose sight of the bigger picture. I think that in many, perhaps most countries there is an unhealthy dynamic between popular opinion and politics which reinforces this -- favoring visible action, no matter what it is, over nuanced and balanced policy aimed at an optimal balancing of the different considerations. And I think altogether too much weight in the thinking has been given to the interests of older, wealthier, white people afraid of the disease but not of hunger or losing educational development, and far too little to the interests of younger, poorer people who simply have different fears.

You praise the Swedish approach, but you shouldn't single Sweden out from the other Nordic countries -- the approach has been more or less the same across the region, and much more attention has been paid in all of these countries to questions of children's development and all the different psychological and public health issues at play, never mind the economic ones. There was even a public scandal in Denmark when it was discovered that the politicians had ordered a brief closing of schools in Spring 2020 against the advice of the public health authorities. Schools were closed for about a month in most Nordic countries from the middle of March to the middle of April 2020, but were reopened before the end of the term and have never been closed since. There is a pretty strong consensus here that the children must not be sacrificed for the sake of reducing the infection rate, if closing schools even has that effect.

Evidence is piling up of the catastrophic effect on children from the widespread school closings. WHO and UNICEF have been speaking out about this for more than a year, but few developed countries outside the Nordic region have paid attention. I wouldn't be surprised if the total adverse effect of school closings alone outweighs the direct effect of the pandemic on the world, when the dust settles, especially considering how long lasting those effects are.


I just hope we will learn something from this when it's over.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

….. And I think altogether too much weight in the thinking has been given to the interests of older, wealthier, white people afraid of the disease but not of hunger or losing educational development, and far too little to the interests of younger, poorer people who simply have different fears...

I concur. This comment will, however, spark outrage here, as that is probably predominantly the profile of CF members.

It is a perceptive comment though. It is the older population that is at high risk of severe illness from this particular virus, with less inconvenience experienced from the measures imposed. The risks for the healthy young are near non existent from the virus itself, yet some of the measures have been highly detrimental and will flow on for years to come, not just for the poor.

Yes, once the dust settles, the handling of this pandemic will be dissected and discussed ad infinitum. Hopefully this will help formulate better strategies to follow next time around.

SWL

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

. . .It is the older population that is at high risk of severe illness from this particular virus, with less inconvenience experienced from the measures imposed. The risks for the healthy young are near non existent from the virus itself, yet some of the measures have been highly detrimental amd will flow on for years to come, not just for the poor.. .

I think we see in the pandemic responses of many countries, the wholly disproportionate political influence of older, wealthier, white people, like us. I have written about this before. I hope with some time and perspective we will have a sober reevaluation of how we handled it, and thinking about not just ourselves.

[boatman61]

Personally I've come to the view its time they stopped these Talking Heads on the 24hr News channels gloatingly announce the latest 'Case Figures' then pontificate over them.
All they achieve is to feed the fear in the population in a negative way..
For me there are two kinds of fear, the Positive kind that gives adrenalin boosts with examples of superhuman strength like a mother lifting a car on her own so her child can be dragged from under, to fight back against the odds, or just survive seemingly impossible hardships..
Then there's the Negative fear that saps the strength, leaves you helpless in front of the bullies, give up at sea under less than difficult conditions and in this case weakens your bodies natural ability to fight infections.. constantly believe you'll catch something, odds are you will.
I have long been of the opinion that personal belief in ones bodies capabilities is a large part of resisting and recovering from disease and disabilities and this constant drip feed of 'Impossible Odd's' against one evading Covid is working more in the virus's favour than anything else.
Time to switch to Flu style reporting, minimal and just on hospitalisations and deaths maybe weekly or monthly.
The smirking announcements of 337,570 new case's needs to stop.
Enough with the Political Football this virus has become.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think we see in the pandemic responses of many countries, the wholly disproportionate political influence of older, wealthier, white people, like us. I have written about this before. I hope with some time and perspective we will have a sober reevaluation of how we handled it, and thinking about not just ourselves.

I don't disagree Dockhead, but would simply point out that the problem you're aptly highlighting lies in the disconnect between wealthier, elitist, maybe even older influences that are chronically oblivious to the needs of working/middle class people. Unlike the former, the latter can't simply afford to indulge their fears over the virus itself when doing so will all too often result in even greater fears coming to pass. Like being denied the ability to earn a living and send their kids to school. Because most of these older, wealthy elitists happen to be white doesn't mean that "being white" is the problem. Becoming insulated by wealth and power to the needs of less fortunate others is hardly new, and hardly determined by skin color. It's instead an unfortunate characteristic of humanity.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by boatman61

... I have long been of the opinion that personal belief in ones bodies capabilities is a large part of resisting and recovering from disease and disabilities and this constant drip feed of 'Impossible Odd's' against one evading Covid is working more in the virus's favour than anything else...

Do you think that your faith [personal belief in ones bodies capabilities] is as effective as vaccination, and/or non-medical interventions?

These charts show that COVID-19 vaccines are doing their job
COVID-19 shots may not always prevent infections, but for now, they are keeping the vast majority of vaccinated people out of the hospital.
➥ https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...test_Headlines

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Exile

I don't disagree Dockhead, but would simply point out that the problem you're aptly highlighting lies in the disconnect between wealthier, elitist, maybe even older influences that are chronically oblivious to the needs of working/middle class people. Unlike the former, the latter can't simply afford to indulge their fears over the virus itself when doing so will all too often result in even greater fears coming to pass. Like being denied the ability to earn a living and send their kids to school. Because most of these older, wealthy elitists happen to be white doesn't mean that "being white" is the problem. Becoming insulated by wealth and power to the needs of less fortunate others is hardly new, and hardly determined by skin color. It's instead an unfortunate characteristic of humanity.

I didn't mean to say anything different from this. I never said that "being white is the problem" and certainly didn't want to start a discussion about race. What I meant was simply that we are in a bubble with a bunch of people just like us (more or less) with not enough understanding of the situation of other people. The biggest difference is young and old, where young people have almost zero risk with the virus and every risk by losing school, physical activity, freedom, even the sight of other people's facial expressions. And in many demographics, even nutrition -- considering the role that school lunches play in the nutrition of the children in some demographics.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Do you think that your faith [personal belief in ones bodies capabilities] is as effective as vaccination, and/or non-medical interventions?

These charts show that COVID-19 vaccines are doing their job
COVID-19 shots may not always prevent infections, but for now, they are keeping the vast majority of vaccinated people out of the hospital.
➥ https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...test_Headlines

The Attack Dog's back..
That's not what I said.. I stated that a constant state of fear weakens one's system.. vaccinated or not.
Any Cherries left on that tree..

[boatman61]

And... from one 'laissez-faire' to another..
Your Welcome..

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I didn't mean to say anything different from this. I never said that "being white is the problem" and certainly didn't want to start a discussion about race. What I meant was simply that we are in a bubble with a bunch of people just like us (more or less) with not enough understanding of the situation of other people. The biggest difference is young and old, where young people have almost zero risk with the virus and every risk by losing school, physical activity, freedom, even the sight of other people's facial expressions. And in many demographics, even nutrition -- considering the role that school lunches play in the nutrition of the children in some demographics.

Understood Dockhead, and I'm clear on what you meant. And have agreed with you from the outset about the balancing that has been required, and why policymakers have often failed in this regard, either for the sake of their own careers and/or on account of their own personal fears. It looks more and more as if the approach of Sweden and some other Scandinavian countries will be vindicated when this is finally behind us. There are many on this forum and generally, however, who are using accusations of "whiteness" as a political weapon, and so I bristle a bit when I encounter this.