Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Who suggested that? Link to some posts?


We had a few pandemic deniers and anti-vaxxers who come and go, but I'm not aware of anyone else who suggested taking no measures and not taking serious measures to protect the "old and feeble".

This exageration is part of the dysfunction and polarization I was speaking about in my post #3363.

Encouraged that others feel their country is different.

But the vitriol i read magnified by social media, seems universal whenever there is a difference of opinion.

It only serves to squash dissent and dilute free thinking so as to encourage acceptance of social mandates.

Starts with Covid, now Halloween and Vallentine are being canceled because it makes some feel sad and lonely

Maybe that craziness is only in the USA, but I fear it is a growing trend.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

What does home schooling have to do with anything?
Pandemic or no pandemic home schooling is home schooling.
In either case the major issue is the lack of interaction with other children.

No, it's not. The major issues are:


1. Educational attainment
2. Social and cognitive development
3. Relief from unhealthy home situations.


One might add nutrition to that, as there are substantial numbers of children in some countries relying on school lunches for nutrition.


Home schooling is NOT indeed just having the kids at home instead of at school. Home schooling is a massive commitment by the parents to fulfill all of the child's educational and social requirements at home, and it requires enormous effort. It does not magically appear in non-home schooling households when the children are sent home one day because the schools were closed. Well-educated parents with time, space and resources might figure it out quickly -- I know some cases like that. But badly educated parents with their own problems, no space or resources, many without technology or knowledge how to use it, some without even internet connections -- how do you think that works out?


School closings have meant the end of school forever for millions of children. I know you don't read anything, but for the benefit of others reading this:



https://abcnews.go.com/International...demic-79447998


Summary: In Mexico, 5.2 million children dropped out of school due to pandemic school closings, 24% increase in domestic violence.


https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/...ished-learning


Summary: A lot of data on the massive learning losses which come from school closings.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8092566/


Summary: Peer-reviewed science showing significant harm to learning in the Netherlands from an only 8 week school closing, with far greater harm to children in lower income families, despite significant social support from the state and highest broadband penetration in the world.


And here:


https://publications.jrc.ec.europa.e...eid=26e959399a


Grim warnings from the European Commission on the devastating long term effects of school closings, including not just learning loss, but also cognitive and social abilities affecting future job prospects:


"Not only are COVID-19 and the move to remote learning and teaching expected to cause greater inequality in cognitive abilities, but they may exert a similar effect as regard students’ emotional well-being and motivation. In fact, students’ isolation from their friends and teachers may result in an unequal distribution of behavioural and psychological problems. During the lockdown, students from less advantaged backgrounds are more likely to be exposed to a stressful home environment (e.g. they are more likely to share a limited space and a limited number of digital devices with other family members). Furthermore, parents in these households, who may be under pressure because of financial and job security issues due to the COVID-19 crisis, are probably not in the best position to support their children in these circumstances.
"The increased disparity in both cognitive and non-cognitive abilities that is likely to emerge during COVID-19 pandemic may have important consequences not only in the short-term, but also in the long-term. Several studies find that children’s cognitive and socio-emotional skill levels are good predictors of later outcomes. Students poorly endowed with these skills tend to have lower educational attainment and poorer labour market prospects, in terms of both employment and pay rates. Therefore, there is the risk that, in the absence of appropriate policy measures, the short-term inequality caused by COVID-19 may persist or even grow over time, leading to more economic disparity in the future."

https://www.nber.org/system/files/wo...264/w28264.pdf

More science on the harmful effects of school closings. Findings are that effects are mild in affluent families; devastating in poor ones.

"The severe learning losses already documented during the Covid-19 pandemic and the prospect of widening educational inequality call for well-designed policies . . .


"A general point about the impact on children’s education is that the impacts are hard to undo and can have lifelong consequences for children’s future prospects. Unlike a business that can be compensated for pandemic-induced losses, there is no magic trick for making up learning losses incurred during the crisis."


I say again -- that school closings have devastating effects on children, particularly from low income families, is NOT controversial. You are welcome to stay in your bubble, denying and not caring about these consequences, but it is a bubble.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

This exageration is part of the dysfunction and polarization I was speaking about in my post #3363.

Encouraged that others feel their country is different.

But the vitriol i read magnified by social media, seems universal whenever there is a difference of opinion.

It only serves to squash dissent and dilute free thinking so as to encourage acceptance of social mandates.

Starts with Covid, now Halloween and Vallentine are being canceled because it makes some feel sad and lonely

Maybe that craziness is only in the USA, but I fear it is a growing trend.

For someone that doesn't like the exaggeration that causes dysfunction and polarization, that is a pretty bold statement on Halloween. I'm not in the US right now, but from the Facebook feed from my neighborhood back there, it seems like there's lots of Halloween preping going on.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

No, it's not. The major issues are:


1. Educational attainment
2. Social and cognitive development
3. Relief from unhealthy home situations.


One might add nutrition to that, as there are substantial numbers of children in some countries relying on school lunches for nutrition.


Home schooling is NOT indeed just having the kids at home instead of at school. Home schooling is a massive commitment by the parents to fulfill all of the child's educational and social requirements at home, and it requires enormous effort. It does not magically appear in non-home schooling households when the children are sent home one day because the schools were closed. Well-educated parents with time, space and resources might figure it out quickly -- I know some cases like that. But badly educated parents with their own problems, no space or resources, many without technology or knowledge how to use it, some without even internet connections -- how do you think that works out?


School closings have meant the end of school forever for millions of children. I know you don't read anything, but for the benefit of others reading this:



https://abcnews.go.com/International...demic-79447998


Summary: In Mexico, 5.2 million children dropped out of school due to pandemic school closings, 24% increase in domestic violence.


https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/...ished-learning


Summary: A lot of data on the massive learning losses which come from school closings.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8092566/


Summary: Peer-reviewed science showing significant harm to learning in the Netherlands from an only 8 week school closing, with far greater harm to children in lower income families, despite significant social support from the state and highest broadband penetration in the world.


And here:


https://publications.jrc.ec.europa.e...eid=26e959399a


Grim warnings from the European Commission on the devastating long term effects of school closings, including not just learning loss, but also cognitive and social abilities affecting future job prospects:


"Not only are COVID-19 and the move to remote learning and teaching expected to cause greater inequality in cognitive abilities, but they may exert a similar effect as regard students’ emotional well-being and motivation. In fact, students’ isolation from their friends and teachers may result in an unequal distribution of behavioural and psychological problems. During the lockdown, students from less advantaged backgrounds are more likely to be exposed to a stressful home environment (e.g. they are more likely to share a limited space and a limited number of digital devices with other family members). Furthermore, parents in these households, who may be under pressure because of financial and job security issues due to the COVID-19 crisis, are probably not in the best position to support their children in these circumstances.
"The increased disparity in both cognitive and non-cognitive abilities that is likely to emerge during COVID-19 pandemic may have important consequences not only in the short-term, but also in the long-term. Several studies find that children’s cognitive and socio-emotional skill levels are good predictors of later outcomes. Students poorly endowed with these skills tend to have lower educational attainment and poorer labour market prospects, in terms of both employment and pay rates. Therefore, there is the risk that, in the absence of appropriate policy measures, the short-term inequality caused by COVID-19 may persist or even grow over time, leading to more economic disparity in the future."

https://www.nber.org/system/files/wo...264/w28264.pdf

More science on the harmful effects of school closings. Findings are that effects are mild in affluent families; devastating in poor ones.

"The severe learning losses already documented during the Covid-19 pandemic and the prospect of widening educational inequality call for well-designed policies . . .


"A general point about the impact on children’s education is that the impacts are hard to undo and can have lifelong consequences for children’s future prospects. Unlike a business that can be compensated for pandemic-induced losses, there is no magic trick for making up learning losses incurred during the crisis."


I say again -- that school closings have devastating effects on children, particularly from low income families, is NOT controversial. You are welcome to stay in your bubble, denying and not caring about these consequences, but it is a bubble.

That is a truly bold assumption on your part as is this ' I know you don't read anything, '
You haven't a clue what I choose to read and what I choose not to read.

Meanwhile here where the longest , and - in the opinion of some - most draconian and downright devastating 'lockdown' is drawing to a close this is where schooling stands -
https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...16-p590j7.html
'It remains to be seen whether COVID will have a lasting effect on this generation of students. Yet children are resilient, adaptive and optimistic; for many, the past 18 months will have been a formative and character-building experience. Indeed, this year’s strong Victorian NAPLAN results came as a surprise to those who had predicted a dramatic fall in academic standards.'

Children from Afghanistan to Zaire have many more things to worry about than their schooling being disrupted by Covid and the unknown consequences of that disruption.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

What I see as the over riding legacy of the Covid-19 =>22 pandemic is a loss of our Confidence:. ...
In Governments
In the Media
In the Scientific Spokesman
In the work ethic
In the right to self determination
In the rights of free speech..
In that precious commodity which is an active and engaged Lifestyle.

The World has tilted more towards the acceptance of subservience and the whimper of fatalism.

Add to that the silencing of doctors and scientists if they have reservations regarding the medical management of the pandemic. This is unprecedented. Open discussion, no matter how radical the ideas and how much they are scoffed at by peers, has been a cornerstone of medical advancement.

More and more so during this pandemic populations are being “shielded for their own good” from anyone not touting the party line and voicing opinions that are deemed by those in power as being “misinformation”. Ring any bells? I just can’t comprehend how this has happened so swiftly in so called democratic nations.

No wonder whacky conspiracy theories are spreading, fuelled all the more by being suppressed.

Astonishingly people seem complacent and happy to accept this censorship and in some cases applaud the stay at home lockdowns. I can only think they are consumed with fear and want to feel “protected”. Either that or because they have been treated like mushrooms and are grasping at straws they think the only way to “safety and freedom” is being confined at home waiting for almost the entire population to be vaccinated, not just those at risk of severe illness.

Also astonishing that major decisions are being made by select government employed advisors who don’t seem to be keeping an open mind regarding data presented by the pharmaceutical industry. Also that governments are not pouring funds into trials to analyse the usefulness of repurposed drugs that cost peanuts (the pharmaceutical industry that usually funds these trials has zero interest in doing so if there is no significant profit to be made).

I can understand the media presenting sensational headlines scoffing at a “horse drug”, but when government medical representatives do the same, it is nothing short of deceptive. Why not let the public know that this drug that is on the WHO essential list (and has won researchers a Nobel prize and been used for decades by millions with minimal adverse affects) may be beneficial, but not enough information is currently available, rather than referring to it as a veterinary drug?

What disturbs me too is the hatred that is being directed at anyone unvaccinated in some Australian states, particularly Victoria who has had more days of stay at home lockdown than any other city worldwide (together with the curfew this is finally being lifted on Friday and some of the other restrictions eased). Those expressing any vaccine hesitancy are being treated as social pariahs and all sorts of ill wishes are being heaped on them. Read the Australian thread for a taste of this. I have not experienced this in the UK.

I think lots of aspects of this pandemic are actually worse than the virus itself.

SWL

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Add to that the silencing of doctors and scientists if they have reservations regarding the medical management of the pandemic. This is unprecedented. Open discussion, no matter how radical the ideas and how much they are scoffed at by peers, has been a cornerstone of medical advancement.

More and more so during this pandemic populations are being “shielded for their own good” from anyone not touting the party line and voicing opinions that are deemed by those in power as being “misinformation”. Ring any bells? I just can’t comprehend how this has happened so swiftly in so called democratic nations...

My mom says, that the best way to a man's heart, is through his stomach.
Her malpractice suit isn't going so well.

[sepharad]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Add to that the silencing of doctors and scientists if they have reservations regarding the medical management of the pandemic. This is unprecedented. Open discussion, no matter how radical the ideas and how much they are scoffed at by peers, has been a cornerstone of medical advancement.

More and more so during this pandemic populations are being “shielded for their own good” from anyone not touting the party line and voicing opinions that are deemed by those in power as being “misinformation”. Ring any bells? I just can’t comprehend how this has happened so swiftly in so called democratic nations.

No wonder whacky conspiracy theories are spreading, fuelled all the more by being suppressed.

Astonishingly people seem complacent and happy to accept this censorship and in some cases applaud the stay at home lockdowns. I can only think they are consumed with fear and want to feel “protected”. Either that or because they have been treated like mushrooms and are grasping at straws they think the only way to “safety and freedom” is being confined at home waiting for almost the entire population to be vaccinated, not just those at risk of severe illness.

Also astonishing that major decisions are being made by select government employed advisors who don’t seem to be keeping an open mind regarding data presented by the pharmaceutical industry. Also that governments are not pouring funds into trials to analyse the usefulness of repurposed drugs that cost peanuts (the pharmaceutical industry that usually funds these trials has zero interest in doing so if there is no significant profit to be made).

I can understand the media presenting sensational headlines scoffing at a “horse drug”, but when government medical representatives do the same, it is nothing short of deceptive. Why not let the public know that this drug that is on the WHO essential list (and has won researchers a Nobel prize and been used for decades by millions with minimal adverse affects) may be beneficial, but not enough information is currently available, rather than referring to it as a veterinary drug?

What disturbs me too is the hatred that is being directed at anyone unvaccinated in some Australian states, particularly Victoria who has had more days of stay at home lockdown than any other city worldwide (together with the curfew this is finally being lifted on Friday and some of the other restrictions eased). Those expressing any vaccine hesitancy are being treated as social pariahs and all sorts of ill wishes are being heaped on them. Read the Australian thread for a taste of this. I have not experienced this in the UK.

I think lots of aspects of this pandemic are actually worse than the virus itself.

SWL

Not so much missing the point as actively IGNORING it.


I agree that people are going along to get along. You are correct, that is bad. But people who are flexible enough to recognize and shift for reality, can move from skepticism to communal safety. If rational (which I admit most are not) in situations of GROUP SURVIVAL, you need to be a GROUP. Epidemics, wars of annihilation, Pandemics, natural disasters can be survived by a unified GROUP response.


Why hate people who fail to respond appropriately? Because they threaten the extinction of the entire group. The "enemy" cannot be negotiated with. They don't even have the ABILITY to do so.



Applying critical thinking, (not dictatorship) which should be at the core of your argument, is essential! You are right, we had ALL better doubt. But in survival situations consensus needs to be reached and applied.



Arguing that half a percent of epidemiologists are being excoriated, might be bad in the search for the cause of ulcers, (it happened and it was bad) but in the case of a potential species extinction, we have to move a hell of a lot FASTER than we did this time, and failure to unify could have a lot worse results than 5 million dead.


It was messy. It cost people everything. Now imagine it was SARS or MERS instead of Covid 19 and imagine 1/3 of the population dead.



This was not a unique experience. It's going to happen again. We got off LIGHT this time people. When its life or death, not rights and duties



So yes, a show me attitude is necessary, but at a certain point as the boat sinks into the water, you deploy the life-raft and get in or die.



Thats why.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

That is a truly bold assumption on your part as is this ' I know you don't read anything, '
You haven't a clue what I choose to read and what I choose not to read.. . . ..

Well, I'm just going by what you wrote yourself:

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

SWL, I'm a busy man - I don't have time to read all the links I post - I leave that work to others.. .

If you don't even read the links in your own posts, then it is a fair surmise that you don't read the links in the posts of others. And clearly you haven't read any of the links to serious science (not to be confused with casual journalism in The Age) about the damage to children from school closings, nor could you so blithely dismiss and deny this if you had done any actual reading on the subject.

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

. . .Children from Afghanistan to Zaire have many more things to worry about than their schooling being disrupted by Covid and the unknown consequences of that disruption.

The consequences have been well-studied and are anything but unknown.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

. . . Astonishingly people seem complacent and happy to accept this censorship and in some cases applaud the stay at home lockdowns. I can only think they are consumed with fear and want to feel “protected”. Either that or because they have been treated like mushrooms and are grasping at straws they think the only way to “safety and freedom” is being confined at home waiting for almost the entire population to be vaccinated, not just those at risk of severe illness.

You shouldn't be astonished -- the fear-driven desire to feel protected by leaders taking "strong action" at whatever cost is a well known part of human nature. You know of course that Stalin was actually widely loved -- even by people whose own relatives had been murdered by him. Stalin was an extreme case, but politicians everywhere understand this instinctively, and Stalin was not the only political leader to intentionally create fear in the population to strengthen his own position. Fear absolutely brings out the worst in people.

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

. . . What disturbs me too is the hatred that is being directed at anyone unvaccinated in some Australian states, particularly Victoria who has had more days of stay at home lockdown than any other city worldwide (together with the curfew this is finally being lifted on Friday and some of the other restrictions eased). Those expressing any vaccine hesitancy are being treated as social pariahs and all sorts of ill wishes are being heaped on them. Read the Australian thread for a taste of this. I have not experienced this in the UK. . .

This is not confined to Australia -- this hatred of people who are for whatever reason not vaccinated, who are maybe misinformed about vaccination, or whose mask has slipped a little in a public place, or who question, however politely, any of the measures employed -- "rat-lickers". People sent to jail for months for travelling within their own countries against some regulation or another, careers ruined, and the unconcealed glee which people discuss such punishments. This is another well-known human characteristic, however disgusting. Very familiar to students of the Stalinist period.

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I think lots of aspects of this pandemic are actually worse than the virus itself.

SWL

Have to agree with you there.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

….This is not confined to Australia -- this hatred of people who are for whatever reason not vaccinated, who are maybe misinformed about vaccination, or whose mask has slipped a little in a public place, or who question, however politely, any of the measures employed -- "rat-lickers". People sent to jail for months for travelling within their own countries against some regulation or another, careers ruined, and the unconcealed glee which people discuss such punishments. This is another well-known human characteristic, however disgusting. Very familiar to students of the Stalinist period.

The other similarity to the Stalin period is informing on neighbours and friends breaking minor rules. This occurred extensively in Australia, particularly in regard to having guests at home.

I still find it hard to accept history is repeating itself in so many regards. There would still be people alive who were adults during Stalin’s rule. Certainly most of their children probably would be. This is living history, not something merely analysed by historians and studied by students.

I find it hard to comprehend how quickly and easily this has occurred in my home country.

SWL

[goboatingnow]

In smaller countries it’s easier to separate public opinion from Gov policy .

The fact remains in many western conventional democracies, the public looked for , demanded and got massive state intervention including massive financial spending. Arguments were set aside , quite rightly , in the face of a very serious threat.

Sure lots of things went wrong and no doubt there will be reflections on this for years to come.

The situation is not unlike a war , back home dissent usually dies down , rules get implemented as needed as the situation is dire and society puts its shoulder to the wheel . It’s all about a perception of survival.

So called freedom lovers ( typically of course freeloading of a stable society ) are simply howling at windmills.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

... I still find it hard to accept history is repeating itself [Stalinism] in so many regards.

I also.
Perhaps, because it's not actually happening.
Perhaps, some of us, are descending into a little hyperbole.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

….. You know of course that Stalin was actually widely loved -- even by people whose own relatives had been murdered by him…..

I am not convinced he was “widely” loved.

There were certainly open dissenters. If they survived they tended to end up in a gulag.

There were grumblings in the general population as well. The tongue in cheek rhyme “the sickle and hammer will demolish hunger” was widely quietly muttered.

SWL

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

The other similarity to the Stalin period is informing on neighbours and friends breaking minor rules. . .

Indeed.



And you know I know this from close up -- I lived in the Soviet Union, not during the Stalin era (I'm not that ancient, ha ha), but knew intimately many people who had been through it, and who had vivid recollections of it. I doubt if we will have a Stalin in any of our democratic countries, at least not in this generation, but these human qualities are everywhere around us just waiting for the right circumstances to come out.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by GordMay

I also.
Perhaps, because it's not actually happening.
Perhaps, some of us, are descending into a little hyperbole.

You think? I guess another human trait is the need for some people to see freedom circling the toilet bowl from every slight they feel due to policies they disagree with.