Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I'm not talking specifically about Australia at all. Did I even mention Australia? No, I did not. There are a lot of examples of fear and loathing all over the world, directed at anti-vaxxers, unvaccinated, people who violate pandemic measures even trivially, even people who merely question pandemic measures,.


The one example of people put in jail for 6 months, one with a criminal record which will ruin his career, does indeed come from Oz, but that's just an example. An extreme example -- the guys were tested, didn't infect anyone, merely travelled from one state to another against the regs. That is a really extreme -- and horrifying -- example -- but not unique to Australia. That was just a handy example.

These are the people that also made fake driving license and then used them?

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Wotname

I am unaware of the case you are referring to and on the surface, it seems extreme. Are you sure there are no other factors involved? Perhaps you could provide a link or a media report or state and month or some such?

The few cases of imprisonment that I have heard of are all more serious than the one you mentioned.




6 months for sexual assault - are you serious!!!!
My advice is don't try that down under, depending on where you are, the max sentence could be for anywhere from 14 years to life.

He is talking about the two that went to Perth. Still managed to get most of the facts wrong.
https://www.3aw.com.au/melbourne-bar...-grand-final1/

They were grown-ups - they knew what could happen.

The 'hate fear and loathing ' most likely refered to the two covid positive dicks that broke quarantine in Tasmania.
That was on a par with taking a breeding pair of rabbits into the Chathams.

I'm surprised you didn't invite the Hobart one around for morning tea. That is what civilized people would have done.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Anders

These are the people that also made fake driving license and then used them?

Yes, a very elaborate plan.

I've just stumbled across this Reuters site which is a bit better than all the dry old graphs.
https://graphics.reuters.com/world-c...ories/germany/

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

He is talking about the two that went to Perth. Still managed to get most of the facts wrong.
https://www.3aw.com.au/melbourne-bar...-grand-final1/

........................

If DH was referring to these guys then they are hardly simple "merely travelled from one state to another against the movement restrictions".

Deceit, lying, forgery, multiple state infringements. Maybe the same guys maybe different ones but one of the WA border runners were also carrying restricted drugs without a prescription.

So until I hear otherwise, I think DH is a victim of media BS (or wishful thinking).

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

.......
The 'hate fear and loathing ' most likely refered to the two covid positive dicks that broke quarantine in Tasmania.
That was on a par with taking a breeding pair of rabbits into the Chathams.

I'm surprised you didn't invite the Hobart one around for morning tea. That is what civilized people would have done.

If it is, then the loathing bit is very apt. However for the record of northern hemisphere readers, these two weren't loathed for being anti-vax. Their crimes were knowingly breaking quarantine while Covid positive in a state that was Covid free.

Big difference!!

The Hobart idiot also lied, resisted arrest, refused to cooperate with health officials and so on. I had to scratch him from my high tea invite or the neighbours would have lynched me as well. Oh wait, they couldn't - we was in a 3 day lockdown due to the aforementioned dick.

Surely such folk aren't held in high esteem in Northern Europe.

[El Pinguino]

I'm struggling with the 'hate fear and loathing' thing. The number of unvaxxed in Australia - at least in the SE bit - is now so small that they are a greater risk to themselves than to me.

I couldn't care less.

And also - I think there was a 3rd member of the WA lot but he faced court later and so tends to get overlooked.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

... 6 months of actual incarceration, resulting in a record which will ruin the career of one of them (alcohol license or something; he is a bar owner) and permanently harm the careers of both of them -- do you seriously think that is punishment which fits the crime? That is similar to the average sentence for sexual assault.

And this craziness is not unique to Australia, although in our region, thank God, much cooler heads prevail. The penalty in Finland for breaking mandatory quarantine (which is only mandatory if you test positive) is a €150 fine, which is rarely imposed, basically only in "rare extreme cases".

There is no uniform "average" sentence for sexual assault, that I could find [short search].

Norway, for instance, is one of the most stringent places with regard to rape. Any kind of sexual behaviour, without consent, falls under the category of rape there, and the perpetrator can be thrown in jail for a period of 4 - 15 years, depending on how heinous the crime was. They have such nice prisons though!

Surprisingly, other countries in Europe, including Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands treat rape as an issue of morality, rather than violence, and allow the perpetrator to escape any punishment, by admitting their guilt, and reaching a settlement with the victim.

Russia, Thailand, and Venezuela are among the [20] countries that still allow men to have rape convictions overturned, if they marry the women or girls they have assaulted.
The law in Morocco was repealed, following widespread outrage, when a young woman killed herself, after she was forced to marry her rapist. Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon, and Tunisia followed suit.

43 countries have no legislation criminalising marital rape.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Wotname

I am unaware of the case you are referring to and on the surface, it seems extreme. Are you sure there are no other factors involved? Perhaps you could provide a link or a media report or state and month or some such?

The few cases of imprisonment that I have heard of are all more serious than the one you mentioned.

Here you are: https://www.smh.com.au/national/melb...13-p58zm8.html. The sentences were actually 10 months.



And how about this one? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53903498 This is more innocent than the previous one. Likewise with no victims and no harm done; the woman objectively needed to get home, then self-quarantined at home after illegally crossing the border. Six months jail. This is serious craziness.



And this: six months in jail for sneaking out of a quarantine hotel to see his beloved; again no victims: https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/healt...rules-c-977452


Australia doesn't have a monopoly on this. But these are really egregious examples of fear-based loss of all perspective and compassion.

Originally Posted by Wotname

. . . 6 months for sexual assault - are you serious!!!!
My advice is don't try that down under, depending on where you are, the max sentence could be for anywhere from 14 years to life.

In the U.S., not known for light sentencing, the average term of imprisonment is about 6 months, although much heavier penalties are possible for more serious cases, up to and including the death penalty in some states. Brief googling shows Oz gives UP TO 14 years for sexual assault. Don't know what the average sentence is there, but I would be willing to bet it's about the same as the U.S.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GordMay

There is no uniform "average" sentence for sexual assault, that I could find [short search].

Norway, for instance, is one of the most stringent places with regard to rape. Any kind of sexual behaviour, without consent, falls under the category of rape there, and the perpetrator can be thrown in jail for a period of 4 - 15 years, depending on how heinous the crime was. They have such nice prisons though!

Surprisingly, other countries in Europe, including Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands treat rape as an issue of morality, rather than violence, and allow the perpetrator to escape any punishment, by admitting their guilt, and reaching a settlement with the victim.

Russia, Thailand, and Venezuela are among the [20] countries that still allow men to have rape convictions overturned, if they marry the women or girls they have assaulted.
The law in Morocco was repealed, following widespread outrage, when a young woman killed herself, after she was forced to marry her rapist. Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon, and Tunisia followed suit.

43 countries have no legislation criminalising marital rape.

My information is not from Google. Remember I'm a lawyer. I studied criminal law and criminal procedure with the great Jerry Israel. The figures I have are somewhat out of date, but I doubt they've changed much. In any case, I'm not sure why we are quibbling -- my point was simply that six months of actual jail time is a very severe punishment. Manslaughter, assault and other serious crimes besides sexual assault, often do not draw much more than that of actual served jail time. It's way out of all proportion for a victimless violation like this.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I'm struggling with the 'hate fear and loathing' thing. The number of unvaxxed in Australia - at least in the SE bit - is now so small that they are a greater risk to themselves than to me.

I couldn't care less.

And also - I think there was a 3rd member of the WA lot but he faced court later and so tends to get overlooked.

When I've finished my work for today, I'll find some relevant information and post it. Believe it or not, but this is a thing, and it's very troubling.

And one more time -- I never said that it's particularly characteristic of Australia. If you have persuaded all the anti-vaxxers in Oz, then my hat's off to you. That's really great! Anti-vaxxers are a much bigger problem in Europe -- they are largely responsible for the big outbreak now going on in Germany (of all places), and the worst outbreak in the world, in Russia, is driven by vaccine hesitancy. And we have the most horrendous polarization in the U.S. over the pandemic with two camps really hating each other, and refusing to accept each other's facts. I'll send you something to read later.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Wotname

If it is, then the loathing bit is very apt. However for the record of northern hemisphere readers, these two weren't loathed for being anti-vax. Their crimes were knowingly breaking quarantine while Covid positive in a state that was Covid free.

Big difference!!

The Hobart idiot also lied, resisted arrest, refused to cooperate with health officials and so on. I had to scratch him from my high tea invite or the neighbours would have lynched me as well. Oh wait, they couldn't - we was in a 3 day lockdown due to the aforementioned dick.

Surely such folk aren't held in high esteem in Northern Europe.

If you go back and read my post, the "fear and loathing" I was describing, is directed towards not only anti-vaxxers, but also violators of pandemic restrictions, even for trivial violations, and for those who even question the pandemic restrictions. Anti-vaxxers is only one part of the picture.

The Hobart guy is, I agree, a really egregious case. I don't know if a long jail term is the right punishment for that, but something which he wouldn't forget is surely in order. But I wasn't talking about the case. See the cases linked above and then tell me what you think.

As to what they think of restriction violators in Northern Europe -- I'm glad you asked.

First of all, we never had any stay at home orders. No one was EVER restricted from leaving his or her home.

Second, we never had any restrictions on leaving or coming back to the country. This is recognized as a constitutional right everywhere in the Nordics.

Third, we never had any mandatory quarantine, when returning to the country after being abroad, much less supervised hotel quarantine. Self-isolation for the unvaccinated was honor system (and people were VERY obedient).

Lastly: Even when one of the very few mandatory restrictions was breached, the enforcement, when it existed at all, was reasonable. Quarantine in Finland is mandatory only under orders of a doctor, after a positive covid test. The fine is €150. That's for someone who is covid-positive, breaking mandatory, doctor-ordered quarantine.

Quite a difference, wouldln't you say?

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

My information is not from Google. Remember I'm a lawyer. I studied criminal law and criminal procedure with the great Jerry Israel...

Google isn’t the source of authoritative information - it's merely the tool for finding authoritative information
It’s analogous to the library’s index file, like ‘LexisNexis ’, or ‘FindLaw’ is to the actual law library’s collection of case law, and statutes, etc.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Google isn’t the source of authoritative information - it's merely the tool for finding authoritative information
It’s analogous to the library’s index file, like ‘LexisNexis ’, or ‘FindLaw’ is to the actual law library’s collection of case law, and statutes, etc.

Of course. I use Google (or rather, Duckduckgo) as much as you; it's immensely valuable. I was an early Wikipedian; also a fantastically valuable resource (more valuable by far the Encylopedia Britannica, in my opinion). My point was only that I have access to information on this particular point which is not in Google.


Minor quibble, though -- Google is not indeed analogous to Westlaw (Lexis, etc.). Those resources have exhaustive compilations of case law and code law. A Westlaw search is conclusive for certain purposes -- if you don't find it there, it doesn't exist. Google is rather hit and miss. If you don't find something in Google, this by no means shows that it doesn't exist. This is an important difference.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

If you go back and read my post, the "fear and loathing" I was describing, is directed towards not only anti-vaxxers, but also violators of pandemic restrictions, even for trivial violations, and for those who even question the pandemic restrictions. Anti-vaxxers is only one part of the picture.

From a philosophical perspective, it boils down to this one question:
'When does a Good thing, become a Bad thing'?

The Theorist will argue NEVER!

The Pragmatist will pose rules and constructs of greater good and damage control as a justification to attack and abuse the basic freedoms, democratic societies, previously held dear.

The Alarmists on both sides raises the tenor to fear and loathing as this outcome will set new global precedents about Utilitarian vs Moral decision making.

This is where we find ourselves now.

Where our rights to decide about what's best for our children, our bodies, our ability to survive economically, has joined the messy abortion debate as a battle over conscience, freedoms and practicality.

Heightened by social media, this has become the bellwether of our time.

[Baronkrak]

Originally Posted by GordMay

For the second consecutive week, Europe was the only region in the world where cases and deaths were found to be climbing in the World Health Organization's weekly global report.
Between November 1 and 7, there was a 1% increase in new weekly cases, the update said, and just over 3.1 million new cases were reported. The region also reported a 10% increase in new deaths over the last week.
➥ https://www.who.int/publications/m/i...-november-2021

During the week 1 to 7 November 2021, a slight upward trend (1% increase) in new weekly cases was observed, with over 3.1 million new cases reported. Over 48 000 new deaths were reported, a 4% decrease from the previous week. The WHO European Region reported increases in case and death incidence, while other regions reported declines or stable trends. As of 7 November, over 249 million confirmed cases and over 5 million deaths have been reported.

https://www.who.int/publications/m/i...-november-2021

Curious.