Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[TeddyDiver]

The stupidity of people don't fail to amaze me again. Self inflicted wounds I'd say. Get the freaking vaccine so we don't need any passes or restricitions when all are vaccinated..

[mat jam]

Dr.Hodkinson former chariman of royal college of physicians and surgeons and a chairman of a medical biotech company.

https://dailyexpose.uk/2021/11/19/dr...of-a-pandemic/

If you want the shot - then get the shot. Just do not promote it, force it. Everyone should make their own decisions. Fate. And really an iq test.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by mat jam

Dr.Hodkinson former chariman of royal college of physicians and surgeons and a chairman of a medical biotech company.

https://dailyexpose.uk/2021/11/19/dr...of-a-pandemic/

If you want the shot - then get the shot. Just do not promote it, force it. Everyone should make their own decisions. Fate. And really an iq test.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/dr...on-covid-hoax/

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by mat jam

Dr.Hodkinson former chariman of royal college of physicians and surgeons and a chairman of a medical biotech company.

https://dailyexpose.uk/2021/11/19/dr...of-a-pandemic/

If you want the shot - then get the shot. Just do not promote it, force it. Everyone should make their own decisions. Fate. And really an iq test.

And some of his other claims:

CLAIM: COVID-19 is “the greatest hoax ever perpetrated” and “just another bad flu.” Roger Hodkinson, a pathologist who identifies himself as the former chairman of the Royal College of Physicians of Canada Examination Committee in Pathology, made the comments by phone during a public meeting in Edmonton, the capital of the Canadian province of Alberta.

AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. Not only is COVID-19 deadlier than the flu, but symptoms can be long-lasting, according to medical experts. Some online posts referred to Hodkinson as a former chairman of the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada. Hodkinson has never been chairman of the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada, the group said.

[mat jam]

Reading comprehension and wording is critical. If i need to explain that to you then you are hopeless. Re-read what you rely on for your nonsense.

Anyone who relies on snopes is a dope. Fate is calling.

[Greg K]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg K
Certainly not the case in the UK. Almost twice the number of vaccinated in ER there than the unvaccinated. Seems to me breakthrough infections are the culprit more than anything else.

No reason to think you will not see the same in Canada. UK had an early start. Give it a few months.



[QUOTE=Dockhead;3523651]Over 90% of adults in the UK are vaccinated. So vaccinated people can be almost 10x less likely to end up in the hospital and still make up an equal number of people in the hospital. So drawing conclusions about vaccine effectiveness, from the number of vaccinated people in the hospital, is a logical fallacy. You can't understand vaccine effectiveness like that. You have to look at the hospitalization RATE between vaccinated and unvaccinated:
QUOTE]

Sure, but you're slaying nonexistent windmills. My comment to Pelagia had nothing to do with vaccine effectiveness. Go back a few posts and take a look at the context of the conversation. You will see that what I'm arguing is that regardless of the rate of infections and hospitalizations, in a reality where the total numbers of infections and hospitalizations for the unvaccinated are smaller one can no longer argue the premise that the unvaccinated are more infectious and more of a burden on the health care system as a justification for apartheid discriminatory policies. It is no longer a valid argument regardless of the actual rate. The data I posted from the UK supports that reality in terms of total numbers... ie, almost twice as many ER admissions of the vaccinated than the unvaccinated. From that perspective, the issue is breakthrough infections not the unvaccinated. And, as vaccine efficacy continues to wane, this will become even more evident.

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

The stupidity of people don't fail to amaze me again. Self inflicted wounds I'd say. Get the freaking vaccine so we don't need any passes or restricitions when all are vaccinated..

I would suggest that the data is not on your side, Teddy. When a country like Ireland which is 94% vaccinated still has high infection rates, it sure looks like the small unvaccinated minority are not the main problem.

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by Greg K

I would suggest that the data is not on your side, Teddy. When a country like Ireland which is 94% vaccinated still has high infection rates, it sure looks like the small unvaccinated minority are not the main problem.

Greg, try to imagine what the hospitals would look like if it were the opposite and 94% of the Irish population was unvaccinated...

[rotrax]

Originally Posted by Greg K

I would suggest that the data is not on your side, Teddy. When a country like Ireland which is 94% vaccinated still has high infection rates, it sure looks like the small unvaccinated minority are not the main problem.

The Vaccine does not give immunity. It has NEVER been suggested by manufactuers, the Scientists and our Government that it does give immunity.



The Vaccine, administered with correct spacing and boosters is extremely benificial in limiting severity of disease and also in limiting the number of deaths.


Currently in the UK we have a very high Vaccine take up, a large number of infections each day, no doubt due to the free test kits and amount of tests carried out.


But hospitalisation and deaths are relativly low and we have few restrictions in our daily lives.


This, I suggest, appears to be the best current way to cope with this disease.


Things may well change in the future, but as things stand, the UK is making the best of a poor global situation.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Greg K

I would suggest that the data is not on your side, Teddy. When a country like Ireland which is 94% vaccinated still has high infection rates, it sure looks like the small unvaccinated minority are not the main problem.

They are as long as the ICU places are running out. Tell that to someone queueing for a life saving surgery.

Would you sign a care will refusing medical care if infected with Covid?

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Greg K

I would suggest that the data is not on your side, Teddy. When a country like Ireland which is 94% vaccinated still has high infection rates, it sure looks like the small unvaccinated minority are not the main problem.

Generally acknowledged that the vaccines are not 100% effective. However it is also well known that the vaccinated are much less likely to have a severe case, go to hospital or die from Covid.

And if you look at the number of deaths in Ireland recently the data does indeed support that.

Considering Ireland has relatively moderate restriction and lockdowns compared to many other countries the numbers don't look so bad.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

The stupidity of people don't fail to amaze me again. Self inflicted wounds I'd say. Get the freaking vaccine so we don't need any passes or restricitions when all are vaccinated..

I wish it was as simple as that.

There are some very smart, otherwise law-abiding people who have concluded that the vaccine may have long term side effects to our natural immune system and prefer not to risk it.

Many are now at the stage of taking the vaccine due to Peer pressure, against their better judgment, rather than a free decision.

Since the UnVax have become the minority in N Europe, I'm just waiting for some legislation where they must pin a big UV Badge on their clothes, before leaving their homes.

Similar to a time best forgotten, when a Yellow Badge was used in the public interest.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I wish it was as simple as that.

There are some very smart, otherwise law-abiding people who have concluded that the vaccine may have long term side effects to our natural immune system and prefer not to risk it.

Many are now at the stage of taking the vaccine due to Peer pressure, against their better judgment, rather than a free decision.

Since the UnVax have become the minority in N Europe, I'm just waiting for some legislation where they must pin a big UV Badge on their clothes, before leaving their homes.

Similar to a time best forgotten, when a Yellow Badge was used in the public interest.

It is indeed not simple. Although I see no evidence yet of long term effects on the immune system it is still very early in the game for the nRNA vaccines. There is clear data that vaccinated are much less likely to get Covid and if they do much more likely to have a very mild case though still very contageous.

So how to deal with those that have doubts? As a holdout from the counter culture of the 60s and 70s I am certainly not anxious to jump on the bandwagon of more government control over what I can and cannot, should or should not do. On the other hand, the unvaccinated greatly increase the risk to society as a whole, send more Covid cases to hospital (which I take very personally having several friends and family in health care).

I can identify the problem but do not see an easy or all right answer.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rotrax

The Vaccine does not give immunity. It has NEVER been suggested by manufactuers, the Scientists and our Government that it does give immunity.

The Vaccine, administered with correct spacing and boosters is extremely benificial in limiting severity of disease and also in limiting the number of deaths.

Currently in the UK we have a very high Vaccine take up, a large number of infections each day, no doubt due to the free test kits and amount of tests carried out.

But hospitalisation and deaths are relativly low and we have few restrictions in our daily lives.

This, I suggest, appears to be the best current way to cope with this disease.

Things may well change in the future, but as things stand, the UK is making the best of a poor global situation.

We were talking about that upthread. The UK is in an unusually good position compared to the rest of Europe because of fairly high vaccination combined with quite high natural immunity. The idea is that now that this many people are vaccinated and the vaccines are available to everyone who wants them, it's time to get out of the state of emergency and back to normal life, and rely on immunity in the population to keep the pandemic from getting back to dangeous levels. Seems to be working so far. UK death rate has been stably about 2 per million for the last month or so, as infections bounce up and down. 2 per million is not a trivial rate, but it is nearly 10x less than the death has been during previous waves, and is not associated with overwhelmed hospitals.

What works in the UK might not work in countries with less immunity in the population, however. Denmark is another country trying this, presently with a higher infection rate and lower death rate than the UK. The Danes, however, are wavering a bit and considering bringing back some measures like requiring corona pass (vaccination, recent testing, or recovery) for state workers.


Latvia shows a very different "end game" for the pandemic measures, a rather harsh one. Latvia has one of the lowest vaccination rates in Europe, and has just been through a horrendous wave of the pandemic. 3 weeks of highly restrictive measures (just short of actual lockdown) were just ended last week, and now what Latvia has implemented is everything is open, all restrictions are off, but ONLY for vaccinated people (not even for recently tested or recovered people). If you are not vaccinated, you can't visit any kind of shop, even many grocery shops, or go to the cinema, theatre, concerts, public events. Period. So the idea is -- normal life for the vaccinated, but not for the unvaccinated. This is harsh, but an awfully strong argument for this approach is -- those of us who are vaccinated, are not going to suffer through endless continuing restrictions just because you decline to get vaccinated.

[rotrax]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I wish it was as simple as that.

There are some very smart, otherwise law-abiding people who have concluded that the vaccine may have long term side effects to our natural immune system and prefer not to risk it.

Many are now at the stage of taking the vaccine due to Peer pressure, against their better judgment, rather than a free decision.

Since the UnVax have become the minority in N Europe, I'm just waiting for some legislation where they must pin a big UV Badge on their clothes, before leaving their homes.

Similar to a time best forgotten, when a Yellow Badge was used in the public interest.

But IT IS as simple as that.


I dont know of many smart people concluding that the Vaccine may give long term side effects to the immune system. No mention of that in anything other than antivax social media. Plenty of scrutiny by our media, medical and scientific community too.



I do know a few who will not be Vaccinated. One must take a hard decision soon - get the jabs or be pushed out of front line medical service. Another is a religious fruitcake, another appears to be a thicko - no sensible reasoning but they just say " I'm not having it! "


We have had the 'flu jab in the UK for years. The AZ Vaccine was developed using the same technology.


No adverse immune system effects with flu jabs in more than 20 years.


Your suspicions and fears appear unfounded in fact.