Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Sorry, but Reuters most definitely does not say that. You are not reading it correctly. According to Reuters, you had mandatory stay at home orders for most of the pandemic.



Attachment 248733


Orange is mandatory stay at home.


And this lines up with the Oxford University stringency index, which shows Oz restrictions as the harshest in the world but for, possibly, Kiwiland, basically 3x as strict as Finland at any given time. It's fairly well known, that Melbourne holds the world record for the most locked down (i.e., under stay at home orders) city in the world.



I know you live in the country and don't have young children and haven't personally experienced much of these restrictions, but that doesn't mean they haven't existed. You seem to want to insist that your own personal experience, represents the whole situation in Australia, but that's just not so.



And I'm not and never did say that the restrictions were not worth it -- I don't know. Australia has had vastly less death than just about the whole rest of the developed world, even less than Finland. I don't know if the harsh restrictions were necessary or not for that result, but the result can't be argued with. But it's necessary to be conscious of the cost, in order to understand the whole picture.

I know you live in the country and don't have young children and haven't personally experienced much of these restrictions, but that doesn't mean they haven't existed.
I have young grandchildren in Melbourne and Canberra. I have a very good idea about what is going on.
You seem to want to insist that your own personal experience, represents the whole situation in Australia, but that's just not so.'
Most of Australia has had it a whole lot easier than I have had it in rural Victoria.

'Orange is mandatory stay at home.
The orange period in Melbourne covered everything from 5km to 25km to 'all of Greater Melbourne' limits.

As Wotname says - you seem unable to grasp the fact that domestic
'lockdown' was very much a Melbourne experience. Ask anyone from NSW, ACT, Qlnd, SA, Tas, and WA how much it has affected them. It has been mainly a border closure issue.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Melbourne with a population of 5+ million had the most days of enforced “stay at home lockdown” worldwide: a total of 262 days (during 2 long periods and 4 short).

For most of this time all shops except those deemed “essential” (grocery stores, pharmacies, takeaway food etc) were closed, movement was limited to a 5km radius, exercise was restricted to an hour per day and there was a 9pm - 5am curfew in place (all the above had limited exceptions).

Ping, why are you so keen to brush this off as no big deal?

When have I said it was no big deal? I'm just not talking it up like some seem keen on doing. People who seem unable to understand our federal system and the localised affect of many restrictions.

Life in Melbourne was a whole lot better than life in Buenos Aires I can assure you. Many places have done it a whole lot harder.

[Dockhead]

The situation in Germany is truly horrible. The one large European country which dodged the first three waves, has been smacked up the side the head with the fourth wave. The Germans are seriously perplexed.

The health minister, Herr Spahn, has said -- "by the end of this winter, everyone will either be vaccinated, dead, or recovered." See: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/feuillet...-17646628.html

Elsewhere in FAZ today (incidentally, one of the world's last great newspapers): "Warum so viele Deutsche ungeimpft sind" -- why so many Germans are unvaccinated -- https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/...-17642778.html. Lamenting that the German-speaking parts of Europe, have the lowest vaccination rates in Western Europe.

AND, an extraordinary joint guest editorial, by the Minister-Presidents of Bavaria and Baden-Wurttemburg -- Die Impfpflicht schützt die Freiheit -- mandatory vaccination protects freedom. https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/...-17647078.html. A passionate defense of mandatory vaccination, as is being implemented in Austria.

"Zu wenige Menschen lassen sich impfen, die Hoffnung auf einen schnellen Ausweg aus der Pandemie ist zerstoben. Eine allgemeine Impfpflicht wäre der Weg, der uns am besten und schnellsten aus dieser Krise herausführt. Ein Gastbeitrag der Ministerpräsidenten von Baden-Württemberg und Bayern."

"Too few people are getting vaccinated, the hope for a quick exit from the pandemic has died. A general vaccination obligation would be the way, which would lead us best and quickest out of the crisis. A guest editorial of the Minister-Presidents of Baden-Württemburg and Bavaria."

[CatNewBee]

Yes, war redderick, to push for vaccinations. I think we need some yellow vests resistance movement in Germany on the streets again. We had 2 dictatorships that failed in the past, we don't need a third one.

They govern against the people for too long. More mass surveillance, vaccine passports, streamlined media, censorship, hate propaganda against the opposition.

We have this mess because they lifted the restrictions before the elections for vaccinated spreaders and stopped testing them, now there is the outbreak everywhere, because of the 2G policies, vaccinated are still no longer tested, despite there are a lot vaccinated in the hospitals too. If you talk to the doctors and read the news papers there are very different figures of the patient ratios between vaccinated and unvaccinated in the hospitals.

[CatNewBee]

This is the real reason for the push of vaccine mandates in Germany

https://www.n-tv.de/22946655

too much vaccine ordered.

[Baronkrak]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

This is the real reason for the push of vaccine mandates in Germany

https://www.n-tv.de/22946655

too much vaccine ordered.

And it is the same for the Swiss Confederation.

[Baronkrak]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Does someone have the latest update on the mechanics of Covid transmission from one person to another?

Can it be transmitted via touching common surfaces?

If yes, how long can a surface remain contaminated?

Is it carried only in the air from one infected breath and inhaled by another?

If yes, what is the potency in crowded spaces like an aircraft or subway?

How long will the virus remain dangerous either in air or on a surface?

What are the updated recommendations for safe distancing with a mask?

The early disinfecting recommendations of precautions for a family member returning from shopping were very extreme...... is this still the same?
Wipe down all groceries
Remove clothes to Q bin and shower

Seems this would be a good time to reinforce the specifics of what individuals should do and safe distances they should keep

https://apps.who.int/iris/rest/bitst...%20the%20virus.

https://www.health.gov.au/news/healt...top-the-spread

[Dockhead]

Good article in the Times about how Europe is turning the screws on the unvaccinated:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/17/w...pgtype=Article

Ever increasing coercion. Not allowing unvaccinated people into shops and public venues has become a thing, with several countries in Europe besides Latvia now having this policy. I'm reluctantly in favor of this, by the way, if it's the only way to stop continuing outbreaks. It's troubling that this kind of coercion has to be used, but it's a lot fairer and less damaging to society, than subjecting the entire population to continuing restrictions.

For some bizarre reason, the German-speaking parts of Western Europe are by far the most unvaccinated, with about 25% of adults remaining unvaccinated, compared to 10% or less in other countries of Western and Northern Europe. This lines up with what was written in the FAZ article linked upthread.


Will these tough measures work? In France, which used to be Europe's hotbed of vaccine hesitancy, vaccine hesitancy melted away when vaccinations were required to go to restaurants and public venues.


In Austria, unvaccinated are now confined to their homes except for going directly to work, school, buying groceries, or medical care. Get vaxxed, or sit at home. The police have been empowered to check vaccination papers on the street. The backlash is severe -- there is even now an anti-vaccination political party. Interesting times, and not in the good sense of "interesting".

[El Pinguino]

Meanwhile back on the High Street

[Dockhead]

For anyone still struggling with the difference between RATES and absolute numbers (like -- there are more vaccinated people in hospital than unvaccinated, therefore vaccination doesn't help :nono, the figures from Germany today show the dramatic difference in infection and hospitalizations between vaccinated and unvaccinated people:















https://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellsc...-16653240.html



In the tables, "Erkrankungen" means "sicknesses" -- sympomatic infections. Note that the advantage of vaccination is seen most dramatically not in older people, but in teenagers, for whom the unvaccinated are 10x more likely to get sick and 16x more likely to be hospitalized.


Let's not be confused about this.

[Dockhead]

Sachsen is the first German Bundesland to have exhausted its hospital capacity: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellsc...-17646331.html


Sachsen is one of the "new" Bundesländer, that is, former East Germany, has the largest element of radical-populist politics and the lowest vaccination rate. The situation is dire -- resembling Lombardy at the beginning of the pandemic, with not enough ICU beds available for all the patients who need them, which means triage takes place and people are left to die.


With constantly increasing infection rates, driven by the unvaccinated, the rest of Germany is not that far behind Sachsen. This is truly awful.


Germany, under the leadership of an actual scientist, had been doing so well, by far the best of any of the large European countries.

[rotrax]

The German situation is very sad. As is the situation in many other countries.



Here in the UK it seems likely we are benifiting from our early start of Vaccination. We are now giving boosters - third jabs of a different type - to over 40's.


We have a large number of daily infections, but are doing huge testing so finding infected people. Hospitalisation and deaths are not too significant for a society with few restrictions.


The UK Government website and the daily BBC news are good sources of Covid news.


I believe the EU's early anti AZ Vaccine stance has left them behind in numbers protected.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Sachsen is the first German Bundesland to have exhausted its hospital capacity: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellsc...-17646331.html


Sachsen is one of the "new" Bundesländer, that is, former East Germany, has the largest element of radical-populist politics and the lowest vaccination rate. The situation is dire -- resembling Lombardy at the beginning of the pandemic, with not enough ICU beds available for all the patients who need them, which means triage takes place and people are left to die.


With constantly increasing infection rates, driven by the unvaccinated, the rest of Germany is not that far behind Sachsen. This is truly awful.


Germany, under the leadership of an actual scientist, had been doing so well, by far the best of any of the large European countries.

What do you think has gone wrong - apart from low vaccination rates?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Wotname

What do you think has gone wrong - apart from low vaccination rates?

I don't know. But my guess is that there are simply enough unvaccinated people, plus enough breakthrough infections, to sustain a really big wave of infection. Perhaps there is some complacency going on -- Germany has had a really easy time before this. If complacency is a factor, than we are also in danger up here from that. We've never had a big wave of infection, never had strict measures, life is normal in Finland.

Note that successive waves have the potential to be worse and worse as the virus becomes more widely distributed through the country. Delta is extremely contagious; it does not take a large percentage of susceptible people to sustain a really big wave.

Note also, for the avoidance of doubt, since so many people seem to have struggled with the concept of how many people in hospital as gross numbers vs RATES of infection between vaccinated and unvaccinated people, that in Germany, there is a huge difference in the rate at which unvaccinated people are infected and hospitalized, compared to vaccinated. From today's FAZ:













https://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellsc...-17647706.html

"Erkrankungen" in the tables means "sicknesses" -- sympomatic infections. "Ungeimpft" means unvaccinated. "Geimpft" means vaccinated.

Interestingly, the difference in susceptibility between unvaccinated and vaccinated is even greater among teenagers -- infections 10x more likely and hospitalizations 14x more likely, among unvaccinated teenagers.

What's happening now in Germany is very much driven by the relatively large number of unvaccinated people, compared to the rest of Western and Northern Europe. So perhaps it's not surprising that there are serious discussions about simply requiring everyone to get vaccinated, as has already been announced in Austria.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by rotrax

The German situation is very sad. As is the situation in many other countries.



Here in the UK it seems likely we are benifiting from our early start of Vaccination. We are now giving boosters - third jabs of a different type - to over 40's.


We have a large number of daily infections, but are doing huge testing so finding infected people. Hospitalisation and deaths are not too significant for a society with few restrictions.


The UK Government website and the daily BBC news are good sources of Covid news.


I believe the EU's early anti AZ Vaccine stance has left them behind in numbers protected.

That doesnt explain Ireland’s situation which was only about 4 weeks behind the U.K. and surpassed it comprehensively in double dose completion timescales.

It should also be noted that the U.K. second dose campaign faltered badly. In fact many European countries finished well ahead of the U.K. in terms of double dose application

The U.K. likes to present the vaccine strategy as some sort of anti Eu win. It’s a complete fallacy. In fact the U.K. approved the AZ vaccine under existing EU rules.

Hence the vaccine rollout doesn’t really explAin what’s going on

My take is the U.K. allowed far more people to die and get ill and now has better natural immunity then most others. Whether it was worth it remains to be seen.