Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Zippee

This position is quite corporate, modestly political and inconsistent. I really don't have the inclination to engage in argumentative polemics with anyone whose mind is made up, especially when delivered with what I consider undeserved confidence and alleged expertise.

I have no idea what you're referring to with your barbs, except you clearly DO want to engage in some sort of "argumentative polemics" but perhaps don't know how to go about it without resorting to insults and incivility. No specific expertise on my part alleged, asserted nor implied. Don't think I've ever suggested otherwise and can't imagine I ever would. This is an obviously complex subject matter with many critical facts that are constantly evolving, and where even experts don't always agree. If you believe I've misconstrued anything, as you obviously do, then it shouldn't be difficult to post corrections so everyone can avoid being misinformed.

Fauci's quote is parsed, as he also stated that all options - including shutdown - is on the table. Other countries agree. Hint: Covid has already become "endemic", and Omicron is the first mega-variant that may upset the whole applecart. Any confidence in the "possible" origin is purely speculative and unproven, completely premature and self-serving. It's one thing to perform due diligence to determine the facts - it's quite another to seek justification for one's own predetermined opinions.

Nothing to disagree with here re: Fauci's positions. I quoted it in its entirety but perhaps the source I used parsed it. Thanks for also pointing out Fauci's warnings about Omicron's negative potential, one which is a given and I can't imagine anyone is in a position to dispute at this early juncture. But what predetermined opinions are you assuming I have? That vaccination for most of the world's adult population is a good thing, but restrictions, lockdowns and compulsory vaccinations also have serious downsides that should be carefully weighed? I'm fully vaxxed and about to get boostered, so what's so political and "self-serving" about that one? Lots of media reports about the origins of Omicron, none of them claiming absolute certainty. Where did I state or suggest otherwise? Here's an example from a basic Google search:

"The earliest sample showing the variant was collected in Botswana on 11 November. Scientists say that the unusual constellation of mutations suggests it may have emerged during a chronic infection of an immunocompromised person, such as an untreated HIV/Aids patient."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-covid-variant

Sorry, we will have to completely disagree. I'll stick with the unedited Campbell and his extremely qualified sources and citations. Now if I have a question about sailing...

Completely disagree about what?? The most recent Campbell video is the first I've watched and know little about the man. I also didn't see anything controversial and found it informative, so what are you referring to? Not sure I can help you out with sailing questions either. I have a respectable amount of experience and decent know-how, but not unlike Covid issues, it's not nearly as much as others. Maybe better to hit up Boatie, Ping, Dockhead & others on that one!

[Dockhead]

Another second hand anecdote, for whatever it may be worth.

I have mentioned a couple of time in this thread, the comments of the daughter of one of my business partners, who is doctor in an intensive care ward in a large U.S. hospital.

Today I heard through this channel -- death from covid is so horrible and painful, that standard procedure is to put the terminal patient into an induced coma, in order to reduce the suffering.

Gack. Get vaxxed!!

This is the same channel through which I heard that unvaccinated patients coming into intensive care almost all ask whether it's too late to get vaccinated.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Another second hand anecdote, for whatever it may be worth.

I have mentioned a couple of time in this thread, the 2 of the daughter of one of my business partners, who is doctor in an intensive care ward in a large U.S. hospital.

Today I heard through this channel -- death from covid is so horrible and painful, that standard procedure is to put the terminal patient into an induced coma, in order to reduce the suffering.

Gack. Get vaxxed!!

This is the same channel through which I heard that unvaccinated patients coming into intensive care almost all ask whether it's too late to get vaccinated.

The sedation, aka induced coma, is so that the patient can tolerate the ventilator tube stuck down their throat days on end.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by GordMay

There’s MUCH that the experts don’t, yet, know about the ‘Omicron’ variant - and even more, that we [cruisers] don’t know.
Yet, we continue to speculate.

There's a huge difference between pure speculation vs. educated assumptions that are expressly conditioned on evolving facts and their potential implications. I'm not seeing the sorts of expressions of absolute certainty here that so often encumber politically charged threads where outcome-determinant assumptions & conclusions are made without any condition or qualification. Or established facts that don't fit someone's agenda are simply ignored despite the equally expert credentials of their proponents. Or worse, the proponents or even messengers of such views are labeled, stereotyped, & otherwise attacked so such views are never given the light of day.

Pure objectivity is hard if not impossible to attain, of course, but this thread has certainly outdone others I've perused, esp. the ones which have been (understandably) closed. I fail to see anything speculative about assuming Omicron turns out to be mild but more contagious then this can or should happen . . . . Or Omicron is worse then we thought, is evading existing vaccinations, so therefore we will have to adjust course this or that way . . . . The stuff of healthy discourse and, when warranted, strident but friendly debate. After all, we all share the same goals here, so people having different views on the means of getting there may be controversial at times, but need not be acrimonious.

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by Exile

There's a huge difference between pure speculation vs. educated assumptions that are expressly conditioned on evolving facts and their potential implications. I'm not seeing the sorts of expressions of absolute certainty here that so often encumber politically charged threads where outcome-determinant assumptions & conclusions are made without any condition or qualification. Or established facts that don't fit someone's agenda are simply ignored despite the equally expert credentials of their proponents. Or worse, the proponents or even messengers of such views are labeled, stereotyped, & otherwise attacked so such views are never given the light of day.

Pure objectivity is hard if not impossible to attain, of course, but this thread has certainly outdone others I've perused, esp. the ones which have been (understandably) closed. I fail to see anything speculative about assuming Omicron turns out to be mild but more contagious then this can or should happen . . . . Or Omicron is worse then we thought, is evading existing vaccinations, so therefore we will have to adjust course this or that way . . . . The stuff of healthy discourse and, when warranted, strident but friendly debate. After all, we all share the same goals here, so people having different views on the means of getting there may be controversial at times, but need not be acrimonious.

Completely agree, and (literally) could not have said it better.

Kudos to you and Seaworthy Lass (especially) and others here for your measured, intelligent exchange of opinions and ideas on this issue without the aggressive rebuttals, attacks, accusations, insults and condescension that have been part and parcel of such discussions on this site. It is truly like a breath of fresh air.

Reading the last few pages, I am encouraged that minds are opening.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Greg K

Completely agree, and (literally) could not have said it better.

Kudos to you and Seaworthy Lass (especially) and others here for your measured, intelligent exchange of opinions and ideas on this issue without the aggressive rebuttals, attacks, accusations, insults and condescension that have been part and parcel of such discussions on this site. It is truly like a breath of fresh air.

Reading the last few pages, I am encouraged that minds are opening.

You should settle in and read the full 4005 posts before yours rather than just the last few pages .

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

You should settle in and read the full 4005 posts before yours rather than just the last few pages .

What makes you think I haven't been following this discussion from the beginning?

I mention the last few pages because the tone of the discourse in these pages is perceptibly different from the rest, especially in being much more open to opposing viewpoints, with challenges being driven by logic rather than ideology.

When somebody like Dockhead can entertain the idea that there may indeed be sound reasons to refuse the vaccine and that mandatory vaccination may not be the answer... there is hope that sane, intelligent discussion on the covid situation and it's potential solutions may be possible after all.

I quote:

"A couple of medical professionals whom I greatly respect, consider that the risks of these vaccines are actually still unknown (despite billions of doses having been administered over more than a year) and that there are actually sound reasons to refuse the vaccine. I don't get that from any of my reading, but there you are. So I'm not sure mandatory vaccination is the answer, either."

[CatNewBee]

Just want to share a civilized podcast discussing settled science, efficacy, side effects, natural immunity and mandates.

https://youtu.be/lraR1R_Imi8

[Allied39]

Originally Posted by Greg K

What makes you think I haven't been following this discussion from the beginning?

I mention the last few pages because the tone of the discourse in these pages is perceptibly different from the rest, especially in being much more open to opposing viewpoints, with challenges being driven by logic rather than ideology.

When somebody like Dockhead can entertain the idea that there may indeed be sound reasons to refuse the vaccine and that mandatory vaccination may not be the answer... there is hope that sane, intelligent discussion on the covid situation and it's potential solutions may be possible after all.

I quote:

"A couple of medical professionals whom I greatly respect, consider that the risks of these vaccines are actually still unknown (despite billions of doses having been administered over more than a year) and that there are actually sound reasons to refuse the vaccine. I don't get that from any of my reading, but there you are. So I'm not sure mandatory vaccination is the answer, either."

As someone who at this point in time has chosen not to be vaccinated I find this turn ( a couple of of posts) interesting.
I choose ( at this point) not to vaccinate but am absolutely not anti vac. It's a personal choice. Get vaccinated, fine. Don't...fine.
What disgusts me beyond belief ( and that is no small task) is the sick, hatefull venom spewed at anyone who chooses not to take the vaccine. Whether it be straight out statements like " cant wait for all the stupid to die" or the concealed, not so obvious statements like"dont go to hospital when you do get sick" ......I recognize hatred when I see and read it. I am able to read between the lines, even if you think I cant.
I at times wonder if hatred is part of the vaccine itself....I have not yet heard or read of any un vaccinated wishing death upon the vaccinated but have heard and read and seen the exact opposite!!!! Plenty of it!!
I pay for my health insurance, happily, and will bloody well do as I please, when I please with absolutely ( thank christ!!!!) no control being exerted over me by anyone. Yet.
I choose to live in a country where at the moment that is still an option.
I watch these tiresome threads for entertainment mostly, somewhat to make sure that my conclusion that "the world has gone mad" is correct. A very smart fellow once told me" never trust your data". This forum is one form of data that I guage my conclusions on.

SICKENING!!!!!

Whilst I applaud what seems to be a semblance "non hatred" I am pretty damned sure it will be short lived and the venom will soon return.

Well, back at it.

May you all fare well,I wish you all good health, whatever your decisions and choices. Fair winds and hands width of water below your keel.....or plush carpet below your couch, whichever may be more applicable.

PS: Not responding.

[Baronkrak]

Sorry I do not spend all my life in front of a computer, I spend most of my free time on my boat.

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

.....
My wife and I keep asking when the anti-vaxxers or even folks like this will be willing to give back their smallpox and polio vaccines that they were required to get before they went to school?
......

I thought your post was amusing. How do you get back something from someone who never took the something? The "antis".

I thought you must have been confused by simply calling Covid unvaccinated "antis".

Covid unvaccinated are groups of people with multiple and diverse reasons that disapprove of the use of the present Covid vaccines because they prioritise their health over anything else.

Covid vaccinated are also groups of people with multiple and diverse reasons that accept the use of the present Covid vaccines. In this thread people get vaccinated to gain access to their boats, they prioritise their boats over anything else.

The links are simply to show the history and demonstrate how well tested other vaccines are. The links are self-explanatory.

[Baronkrak]

https://www.unisante.ch/fr/unisante/...mmunite-contre


My conclusions are:
1/3 of vaccinated did not need a Covid vaccination.
Vaccination provides a theoretical immunisation.
The unvaccinated are the winners.

[sepharad]

Dockhead,

Thank you for your updates on this post. My boat is in Denmark as well, and I find your accurate regional updates invaluable.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Allied39

As someone who at this point in time has chosen not to be vaccinated I find this turn ( a couple of of posts) interesting.
I choose ( at this point) not to vaccinate but am absolutely not anti vac. It's a personal choice. Get vaccinated, fine. Don't...fine.
What disgusts me beyond belief ( and that is no small task) is the sick, hatefull venom spewed at anyone who chooses not to take the vaccine. Whether it be straight out statements like " cant wait for all the stupid to die" or the concealed, not so obvious statements like"dont go to hospital when you do get sick" ......I recognize hatred when I see and read it. I am able to read between the lines, even if you think I cant.
I at times wonder if hatred is part of the vaccine itself....I have not yet heard or read of any un vaccinated wishing death upon the vaccinated but have heard and read and seen the exact opposite!!!! Plenty of it!!. . . .

Don't get me wrong -- I am pro-vaccination. And moreover I think that by not getting vaccinated, you are causing problems not only for yourself, but for the rest of us.

However, there are two other factors in this: (1) science, which calls for us to be open minded, curious, and humble; and (2) common decency towards other human beings. These two things make it simply unacceptable to hound the unvaccinated as has been happening.

Upthread I cited a New York Times article about this, which I'm not sure many on here read to the end. Here it is again: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/27/s...time-cutoff-20 "They Died from COVID. Then the Online Attacks Started." The conclusion is that the hounding of the unvaccinated, especially in social media, is not only extremely vicious, it is motivated by anti-scientific and arrogant thinking. This has no place in a civilized society.

[goboatingnow]

I think history shows is is collectively humans have little concern about being decent to other humans.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I think history shows is is collectively humans have little concern about being decent to other humans.

It comes and goes, but there are plenty of examples of societies through history, where part of the culture was for people to be mostly decent towards each other.

Not a good moment for this in my old polarized motherland, but Nordic societies are actually really good in this way. And you don't see the vaccine-hesitant being hounded or harrassed or despised at all, nor people who have let their masks slip a little or who have otherwise violated some reg or another. I told the story about the lady on the Finnair flight who got a little hysterical and refused to wear her mask. In the U.S., she would have been hauled off the flight in handcuffs. In this case, she was politely reasoned with and then left alone, nor did the other passengers get upset with her.

Is it any coincidence that in these countries, there are extremely few vaccine-hesitant, and that people are highly compliant with the regs, even when they are not mandatory (as most of them aren't)? And which are very lightly enforced when they are enforced at all (€150 fine for violating mandatory quarantine by a covid-positive person, vs 6 months in jail for a covid-negative person illegally crossing state borders in some other countries)? I think not.