Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You skipped the lady who was in one city to take care of her sick sister, who then snuck back to another one, was nicked, and thrown in jail for months. Without infecting anyone.


I know this all seems normal to you -- "They knew! Serves them right!". And that's fine. We know your opinion. Some other people are pretty horrified. That's a different opinion. For the record, it is exceptionally rare, all around the world, outside of places like North Korea and China, to give hard jail time to people without prior criminal records, for nonviolent crimes, nor is that kind of harsh punishment considered by criminologists to be useful at reducing crime. "Make an example of the few, the rest will comply", could be a quote from Stalin or Beria. It's about a century out of date, and half a hemisphere out of place.

No, it does not all seem normal to me. Sorry but you are guilty of making a bold assumption. I can assure you that nothing about this pandemic seems normal to me.

Quite a few people have copped a week here and a week there for breaching quarantine and illegal border crossings.

The WA cases were beyond blatant thumbing of the nose at the authorities.
Do you have any details of the woman who was 'thrown in jail for months'.

And what is this 'hard jail time' of which you speak?

And no - you do not know my opinion.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

No, it does not all seem normal to me. Sorry but you are guilty of making a bold assumption. I can assure you that nothing about this pandemic seems normal to me.

Quite a few people have copped a week here and a week there for breaching quarantine and illegal border crossings.

The WA cases were beyond blatant thumbing of the nose at the authorities.
Do you have any details of the woman who was 'thrown in jail for months'.

And what is this 'hard jail time' of which you speak?

And no - you do not know my opinion.

You have clearly expressed several times -- do I need to go back and quote your posts? That you think all these folks are scrotes and deserve what they get. You seemed even happy about it. If your actual opinion is more nuanced than this, you're welcome to post a correction.

"Hard" jail time is an actual term of art. It means -- you actually sit in jail. Have you ever been in jail, or visited anyone in jail?


I admit (and apologize for) that I bring some baggage to this conversation. I am a lawyer, studied criminal law, visited prisons as part of my training. I come from a country with harsh laws and harsh punishments and prisons overflowing with miserable souls, some of them imprisoned for decades on trivial violations of drug laws due to our idiotic "war on drugs". The casual "they got what they deserve!" attitude towards someone deprived of liberty and thrown into that horror, sets me off a bit.

[laird]

Dr John Campbell has just posted another video ,and he's optimistic about The new strain

Lol I don't know how to post the link

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You skipped the lady who was in one city to take care of her sick sister, who then snuck back to another one, was nicked, and thrown in jail for months. Without infecting anyone.


I know this all seems normal to you -- "They knew! Serves them right!". And that's fine. We know your opinion. Some other people are pretty horrified. That's a different opinion. For the record, it is exceptionally rare, all around the world, outside of places like North Korea and China, to give hard jail time to people without prior criminal records, for nonviolent crimes, nor is that kind of harsh punishment considered by criminologists to be useful at reducing crime. "Make an example of the few, the rest will comply", could be a quote from Stalin or Beria. It's about a century out of date, and half a hemisphere out of place.

Come on Dockhead.. it was a Penal Colony..
6mths inside makes no difference.. they're still in Oz..

Just kidding guys... Honest.!!!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Come on Dockhead.. it was a Penal Colony..
6mths inside makes no difference.. they're still in Oz..

Just kidding guys... Honest.!!!

ROTFLMAO.


Phil, you are the only sane person on here. I'd sail with you anytime

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
. . . .Finally - I can disagree with others viewpoint without hating them!

Originally Posted by Dockhead

..................

Thank God for that!

It is becoming increasing clear that not all CF members can - sadly.
However it is also clear one's POV can be lost due the posters writing ability (and readers comprehension ability) so I do try to give everyone the benefit of any doubt that occurs.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

snip..

I admit (and apologize for) that I bring some baggage to this conversation. I am a lawyer, studied criminal law, visited prisons as part of my training. I come from a country with harsh laws and harsh punishments and prisons overflowing with miserable souls, some of them imprisoned for decades on trivial violations of drug laws due to our idiotic "war on drugs". The casual "they got what they deserve!" attitude towards someone deprived of liberty and thrown into that horror, sets me off a bit.

That brings to mind a question if people vetoing on individual freedom for not taking the vaccine can also support the right of personal drug use?
ps. and the right for abortion?

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

............
We do this already with smokers -- they pay more for their health insurance. Does anyone think that's wrong?

I have a lot of sympathy for smokers although I am not one - never have been. It is a very difficult addiction to break and by and large these days, they are demonised by the rest of us. I don't enjoy being up close and personal with a smoker but they should get the same health care as the rest of us.

Should they pay more - dunno. They are certainly hit hard, really hard by taxation - at least downunder. In fact, I dunno how most of them can afford to smoke. I believe in universal health care so paying more tax than the rest of us sort of conflicts with this belief.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

That brings to mind a question if people vetoing on individual freedom for not taking the vaccine can also support the right of personal drug use?
ps. and the right for abortion?

I didn't say I support the right of personal drug use.


And what possible relevance is abortion to all of this?


I'm talking about crime and punishment. And you have no right to participate in this discussion. You come from a country where this problem almost doesn't exist. First of all, there's almost no crime in Finland. Second, if you do commit a crime in Finland, mostly you get an income-adjusted fine. And in really egregious cases, like one case I know from Kemi, near the Arctic circle, where a Finnish man murdered his ex-wife and American boyfriend in cold blood and out of sheer jealousy -- you go to a prison for a few years (never more than a decade), in a prison without walls, where the guards don't wear uniforms and carry no weapons.



You simply have no idea what it's like in the rest of the world. In America you would be executed by lethal injection for such a crime.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

This is not necessarily a dichotomy. In fact those societies with the most highly developed individual rights are at the same time those with the most highly developed social trust and social solidarity. High levels of social trust and social solidarity allow greater individual rights, as those are then used with more responsibility. This combination makes citizens more autonomous. This is a virtuous cycle.


This is not -- N.B.! -- the U.S., nothwithstanding our image of ourselves as a "ruggedly individualistic" society, where individual rights are almost entirely subject to whatever kind of infringement by the states, or in some cases federal government, depending on the social or unfortunately governmental interests at stake.

.............

High levels of social trust and social solidarity allow greater individual rights, as those are then used with more responsibility.


Is this a chicken and egg thing - no one knows which came first? Or does the ability to have more freedoms only follow from having trust in the first place (or vice versa)?
What happens where/when the trust is broken (by either party)?

All interesting questions - something to think about when next on the water.

As for the USA, from the outside looking in, I simply don't understand the culture there. There seems a huge gulf between the various extremes of life and culture observed there. I wonder if their constant cry for 'freedoms' stem from significant state based oppression.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Wotname

. . . As for the USA, from the outside looking in, I simply don't understand the culture there. There seems a huge gulf between the various extremes of life and culture observed there. I wonder if their constant cry for 'freedoms' stem from significant state based oppression.

Your diagnosis is exactly correct, Dr. Wotname. In my opinion. Case on point, in fact.

In America, there is solid Constitutional authority for the states forcing you to take a vaccine -- they can strap you to a table and push the needle in (Jacobson vs. Massachusets) and it would be perfectly legal. They can force you to stay at home, they can restrict your foreign travel (as they have done for decades with respect to Cuba). They can do actually anything they want, so long as one degree or another (depending on the type of question) of collective interest is shown. I used to teach this stuff.

In Finland, the state may not force you to be injected with anything, no matter how much the politicians so desire, nor can Finnish citizens nor even residents like me be restricted from leaving the country, or coming back. The government may not order you to stay at home short of wartime, and pandemic is not wartime. Yet for all of those individual rights, more people in Finland comply with RECOMMENDATIONS than in America comply with restrictions which can get you in prison. Go figure.

And Australia -- that's a different universe altogether. Someone said, one of the state premiers I think -- we don't care about human rights, the matter is human LIVES. That is -- for theoretically saving lives, no individual rights are even in question.

[laird]

Originally Posted by Wotname

I have a lot of sympathy for smokers although I am not one - never have been. It is a very difficult addiction to break and by and large these days, they are demonised by the rest of us. I don't enjoy being up close and personal with a smoker but they should get the same health care as the rest of us.

Should they pay more - dunno. They are certainly hit hard, really hard by taxation - at least downunder. In fact, I dunno how most of them can afford to smoke. I believe in universal health care so paying more tax than the rest of us sort of conflicts with this belief.

People who do not have addictive personalities seem unable to comprehend just how difficult is is to give up stuff that you are addicted to ,be it cigarettes ,alcohol ,drugs ,sugar to name some .

I've been off the booze for 28 years ,I've quit smoking cigarettes I avoided class A drugs , I've spent a lot of time in UK prisons trying to help convicts quit their drug of choice
Addiction is an illness , unfortunately too many people make too much money from Alcohol, cigarettes ,Drugs and sugar and as long as there is huge profits in these substances they will be available

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You have clearly expressed several times -- do I need to go back and quote your posts? That you think all these folks are scrotes and deserve what they get. You seemed even happy about it. If your actual opinion is more nuanced than this, you're welcome to post a correction.

"Hard" jail time is an actual term of art. It means -- you actually sit in jail. Have you ever been in jail, or visited anyone in jail?


I admit (and apologize for) that I bring some baggage to this conversation. I am a lawyer, studied criminal law, visited prisons as part of my training. I come from a country with harsh laws and harsh punishments and prisons overflowing with miserable souls, some of them imprisoned for decades on trivial violations of drug laws due to our idiotic "war on drugs". The casual "they got what they deserve!" attitude towards someone deprived of liberty and thrown into that horror, sets me off a bit.

Show me anywhere in any thread that I have used the word 'scrotes'.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Your diagnosis is exactly correct, Dr. Wotname. In my opinion. Case on point, in fact.

In America, there is solid Constitutional authority for the states forcing you to take a vaccine -- they can strap you to a table and push the needle in (Jacobson vs. Massachusets) and it would be perfectly legal. They can force you to stay at home, they can restrict your foreign travel (as they have done for decades with respect to Cuba). They can do actually anything they want, so long as one degree or another (depending on the type of question) of collective interest is shown. I used to teach this stuff.

In Finland, the state may not force you to be injected with anything, no matter how much the politicians so desire, nor can Finnish citizens nor even residents like me be restricted from leaving the country, or coming back. The government may not order you to stay at home short of wartime, and pandemic is not wartime. Yet for all of those individual rights, more people in Finland comply with RECOMMENDATIONS than in America comply with restrictions which can get you in prison. Go figure.

And Australia -- that's a different universe altogether. Someone said, one of the state premiers I think -- we don't care about human rights, the matter is human LIVES. That is -- for theoretically saving lives, no individual rights are even in question.

Stop making things up.... show where that was said.
And we are still waiting for more detail on the woman who copped months in the slammer for visiting her mum.

If all jail time is hard isn't saying 'hard jail time' a bit like saying 'PIN number'?


If you want harsh treatment go and bother the kiwis.... you may recall what they did to the Germans. If not here you go
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-...G6YOHDCJECAIE/


That is harsh.
I'm not sure if the yacht was seized or simply impounded.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I didn't say I support the right of personal drug use.


And what possible relevance is abortion to all of this?


I'm talking about crime and punishment. And you have no right to participate in this discussion. You come from a country where this problem almost doesn't exist. First of all, there's almost no crime in Finland. Second, if you do commit a crime in Finland, mostly you get an income-adjusted fine. And in really egregious cases, like one case I know from Kemi, near the Arctic circle, where a Finnish man murdered his ex-wife and American boyfriend in cold blood and out of sheer jealousy -- you go to a prison for a few years (never more than a decade), in a prison without walls, where the guards don't wear uniforms and carry no weapons.



You simply have no idea what it's like in the rest of the world. In America you would be executed by lethal injection for such a crime.

Are you serious?
And even if we don't have "that" problem, we have criminal records for people caught with possession of drugs and we do have people who are against abortion.. so i think it's a very relevant question to ask how selective freedom people are talking about.

ps. and if you read my previous post more carefully you'll notice it was not against you but to widen the perspective..