Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[Montanan]

Austria extends COVID-19 lockdown by 10 days

An Austrian parliamentary committee on Tuesday, as widely expected, approved a decree extending the country's COVID-19 lockdown by 10 days, bringing its total duration to 20 days, which the government has said is the longest it will last. The main committee of Austria's lower house of parliament, which is responsible for vetting certain major government decisions, approved the lockdown extension through Dec. 11, parliament said in a statement.

The conservative People's Party and the left-wing Greens, which together form Austria's governing coalition, backed the extension in the committee, as did the opposition Social Democrats.

Under the lockdown restaurants, cafes, bars, theatres, museums and non-essential shops have closed their doors. Restaurants can, however, serve take-away meals and non-essential shops can make "click and collect" sales.
People can only leave their homes for a limited number of reasons, such as going to work or shopping for essentials. Being outdoors for "physical and mental recovery", like going for a walk, is also allowed, with no limit on time or distance.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/austria-e...222239915.html

[Pelagic]

Is this for real????
Or just some crazy crap?

https://www.facebook.com/pasthenry.g...6873/?sfnsn=mo

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Show me anywhere in any thread that I have used the word 'scrotes'.

You didn't. That was a paraphrase. You argued quite vociferously that you thought that what they did (sneaking across state lines) was horrible and that the punishment (some months of hard jail time) was richly deserved, and you objected to anyone questioning that. In other cases, you used the terms "dropkicks", also "dills", to describe people violating covid regulations.



But anway, that's many pages back -- water over the dam. We already had that discussion.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You didn't. That was a paraphrase. You argued quite vociferously that you thought that what they did (sneaking across state lines) was horrible and that the punishment (some months of hard jail time) was richly deserved, and you objected to anyone questioning that. In other cases, you used the terms "dropkicks", also "dills", to describe people violating covid regulations.



But anway, that's many pages back -- water over the dam. We already had that discussion.

Oh dear, dropkicks and dills. Golly.

Now where did I use the word 'horrible"?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Are you serious?
And even if we don't have "that" problem, we have criminal records for people caught with possession of drugs and we do have people who are against abortion.. so i think it's a very relevant question to ask how selective freedom people are talking about.

ps. and if you read my previous post more carefully you'll notice it was not against you but to widen the perspective..

I was exaggerating and teasing you. I just meant that you are spoiled, coming from a country which basically doesn't do punishment at all. It's a very advanced, very happy society, and I feel really privileged to (sort of) live here. You are lucky.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Stop making things up.... show where that was said.
And we are still waiting for more detail on the woman who copped months in the slammer for visiting her mum.

If all jail time is hard isn't saying 'hard jail time' a bit like saying 'PIN number'?

If you want harsh treatment go and bother the kiwis.... you may recall what they did to the Germans. If not here you go
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-...G6YOHDCJECAIE/

That is harsh.
I'm not sure if the yacht was seized or simply impounded.

Making stuff up? You shouldn't throw around accusations like that. I htink you know that I'm pretty careful. Which doesn't mean I don't make mistakes - I make them every day, and am grateful to be correected, but I don't make stuff up.

Here's the lady thrown in jail:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Here you are: https://www.smh.com.au/national/melb...13-p58zm8.html. The sentences were actually 10 months.

And how about this one? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53903498 This is more innocent than the previous one. Likewise with no victims and no harm done; the woman objectively needed to get home, then self-quarantined at home after illegally crossing the border. Six months jail. This is serious craziness.

And this: six months in jail for sneaking out of a quarantine hotel to see his beloved; again no victims: https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/healt...rules-c-977452

Australia doesn't have a monopoly on this. But these are really egregious examples of fear-based loss of all perspective and compassion.. . .

You think this is normal -- that's your opinion, and I respect it. I have a different opinion, based on experience and professional knowledge, and would be grateful for a modicum of respect for it.

As to "hard time", as I said before, this is a term of art with concrete meaning. It means time actually spent behind bars, as opposed to time spent in community service, remitted, probationed, etc.

As to who said human rights don't matter, here you go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f36CvLXhCyU

https://www.theguardian.com/australi...e-covid-curfew

Since you thought I made it up, I guess you hadn't heard this, so I guess are not too familiar with everything which is happening in your own country. You shouldn't immediately assume that information which is new to you, is "made up".

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

The point to be made is being jailed for any time whatsoever when no harm was done.
............

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Give it a break!
Did any of these people know 'no harm was/would be done' when they commited the offences?
No they did not.
Had any of them been tested before commiting the offences ?
No they had not................

I kinda hoping that SWL's concerns gets some traction among the legal eagles in Oz.

How good would it be to be able say to the Beak "Fair go gov, I never hurt no one, yeah I was speeding and I was seriously pissed but no harm was done - the Walloper was being a bit over the top by nicking me."

Beak to Walloper: "Is this true, he didn't hit anyone or cause any harm?"

Walloper to Beak: "Correct your Honour but he was speeding and he was intoxicated, both serious offences"

Beak: "No harm, no foul. Case dismissed and don't waste my time again"

[Exile]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Oh dear, dropkicks and dills. Golly.

Now where did I use the word 'horrible"?

'Scrotes' may have more accurately summarized your views of such people after all, but you can always clarify. According to my computer's dictionary it means (along with the more obvious ) a 'contemptible person.' Seems to capture the gist of it but maybe I misinterpreted your comments. I'm sure there are some who warrant this but it seems like an awfully broad brush.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Let's see if I can explain it better but please remember I have never been a wordsmith and it is complex subject.

1. No one should be denied ICU treatment and if triage is required, vaccination status should not be an deciding factor although it could possibly be a medical contributing factor.

2. Before choosing to decline vaccination on the grounds of "my rights", one should ask oneself what is ones personal ethical response should one then need the services on an ICU.

3. My (hypothetical) ethical response would be to decline the ICU service (if a vaxxed person also needs it).

In truth, I believe I would likely fall short of my self imposed ideal ethical response and would consider myself to be hypocritical and selfish in accepting ICU. This would lead to feeling shameful and possibly guilty (for not thinking it through and not having the courage to standby my convictions).

However I vaccinated so the questions no longer arise for me.

I would not demand others to do in the same but I do think they should consider the consequences of their choices and ask themselves hard questions, consider their convictions and not simply stop at excising 'their rights'.

OK, now that's clear. Sorry I didn't grasp it the first time.

Complex, yes. But I kind of agree with you, now that you put it that way.


I think the problem is that people declining to get vaxxed just don't think it can happen to them - getting so sick that they will need ICU care. Like with so many things. Then when it does happen it's too late. Human nature.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Wotname

I kinda hoping that SWL's concerns gets some traction among the legal eagles in Oz.

How good would it be to be able say to the Beak "Fair go gov, I never hurt no one, yeah I was speeding and I was seriously pissed but no harm was done - the Walloper was being a bit over the top by nicking me."

Beak to Walloper: "Is this true, he didn't hit anyone or cause any harm?"

Walloper to Beak: "Correct your Honour but he was speeding and he was intoxicated, both serious offences"

Beak: "No harm, no foul. Case dismissed and don't waste my time again"

What SWL is referring to, is the general principle of criminal law and sentencing policy to not give jail time for victimless first offences.

There are some exceptions, but they are quite rare, and so it is indeed truly unusually harsh, outside of police states, to be giving jail time to people for this kind of violation.

Speeding and driving drunk and causing no accident, it is extremely unlikely in almost all countries which are not police states, to get actual jail time if it's a first offence. You will get a huge fine (in Finland it's a percentage of your income, so if you're rich, the fine will be really huge), lose your licence, be required to take courses, and/or do community service.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Exile

'Scrotes' may have more accurately summarized your views of such people after all, but you can always clarify. According to my computer's dictionary it means (along with the more obvious ) a 'contemptible person.' Seems to capture the gist of it but maybe I misinterpreted your comments. I'm sure there are some who warrant this but it seems like an awfully broad brush.

No, I would never use the word 'Scrotes' and that word has no relationship to the words dill or dropkick both of which just mean a stupid person.
They broke the law quite intentionally just to watch a football match and put a whole state at risk by attending several possible superspreader events.
They acted like dills and dropkicks.
They got what was coming to them.

I do wish DH would stop paraphrasing and indulging in hyperbole.
'Hard Jail Time' ? Get a grip, they would be 'living next door to Alan' except he is dead.
And no I haven't been to jail, I haven't been to the moon either but I know it isn't made of green cheese.
To compare the US jail system with what we have in Australia shows an appaling lack of knowledge of Australia.

Seeing today's news I can but assume he is confusing Australia with the other place - the one without kangaroos.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

No, I would never use the word 'Scrotes'

OK, then I apologize for putting that word in your mouth.

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

. . . They broke the law quite intentionally just to watch a football match and put a whole state at risk by attending several possible superspreader events.
They acted like dills and dropkicks.
They got what was coming to them.

That speaks for itself. No comment.

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I do wish DH would stop paraphrasing and indulging in hyperbole.
'Hard Jail Time' ?

For the third time, "hard time" is a term with specific meaning. This is not any kind of hyperbole.

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

. . .To compare the US jail system with what we have in Australia shows an appaling lack of knowledge of Australia.. .

I never compared the appalling US prison system with Australia's. For the record, it's chalk and cheese. The U.S. has an incarceration rate nearly 4x (!) higher than Australia's, still has and uses the death penalty (abolished nearly 50 years go in Oz), and many U.S. prisoners are kept in nearly medieval conditions. Australia's prison systems vary between the states, but are generally modern, well-run, and well respected among professionals, and I never said anything different.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

... You simply have no idea what it's like in the rest of the world. In America you would might be executed by lethal injection for such a crime.

Amnesty International states [1] that at the end of 2020:
- 108 countries have abolished the death penalty in law for all crimes, and 144 countries have abolished the death penalty in law or practice.
- 28 countries have effectively abolished the death penalty, by not executing anyone in the past 10 years
- 55 countries still retain the death penalty for ordinary crimes
- Most known executions took place in China, Iran, Egypt, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia – in that order.

Amnesty International recorded 483 executions, in 18 countries, in 2020, a decrease of 26%, from 657 recorded in 2019. This figure represents the lowest number of executions, that Amnesty International has recorded in the past decade.
At least 18 exonerations of prisoners, under sentence of death, were recorded, in 2020: Cameroon (3), China (1), Singapore (1), Taiwan (1), USA (6) and Zambia (6).

According to the Death Penalty Information Center [2], 28 US states, out of 50, have the death penalty.

The 22 states that do not have the death penalty are: Alaska, Colorado [abolished last year], Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Dakota, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin, as well as the District of Columbia.
Three states: California, Oregon, and Pennsylvania, have imposed moratoria, otherwise known as temporary suspension, on executions.

Most US states that have the death penalty, use lethal injection, as their primary method of execution, but protocols differ from state to state.
Some use one drug while others use a cocktail of two or three.
Electrocution is used, in some executions, in Alabama, Florida, Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Virginia.

The US federal government had refrained from executing convicts, since about 2003. But, in July 2019, Donald Trump announced the Government would [& did] start executing federal death-row inmates, for the first time in 17 years.

[1] ➥ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/pr...s-and-figures/

[2] ➥ https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/state-a...state-by-state

[Dockhead]

And back to our part of the world, here are today's numbers:





Even before Omicron hits, this doesn't look all that good.

Death rates in Denmark and Finland were just above and below 1, a week or two ago, and now both around 2. This is already not good.

What concerns infection rates, even Sweden, the only country in the region with infection rate below 200, is seeing increases. A couple of weeks ago, it was under 100.

The really scary story, however, is Germany. Infections have levelled off at about 700, but the death rate is almost 3.5 and increasing sharply.

German newspapers are clamouring for mandatory vaccination. https://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtscha...-17660471.html "Die Impfpflicht ist das kleinere Übel" -- Mandatory Vaccination is the Lesser Evil. The argument is that mandatory vaccination is much less harmful than further strict NPI's.

A new study from Humbolt University shows that unvaccinated people are involved in 90% of new infections: https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/...-17660067.html

This lines up with the other study we discussed upthread.

I guess it is likely that we will see mandatory vaccination in Germany, where this has been judged constitutionally permissable (unlike in the Nordic countries), and probably exclusion of unvaccinated people from many public places.

And of course all of this is without Omicron. What happens then, God only knows. "Interesting times", in the worst possible sense. A couple of months ago I thought the pandemic was basically over up here. I was wrong.


Wait -- there is one bright spot on the map, at least pre-Omicron -- the UK. Hospitalizations down, cases going down, death rate below 2 and slowly falling. Also, Ireland, despite very high infection rate, has the lowest death rate on my chart except only for Sweden. How Ireland has such a low death rate, with hospitalization rate higher than the UK, I don't know, but there it is.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

OK, then I apologize for putting that word in your mouth. That speaks for itself. No comment.



For the third time, "hard time" is a term with specific meaning. This is not any kind of hyperbole.



I never compared the appalling US prison system with Australia's. For the record, it's chalk and cheese. The U.S. has an incarceration rate nearly 4x (!) higher than Australia's, still has and uses the death penalty (abolished nearly 50 years go in Oz), and many U.S. prisoners are kept in nearly medieval conditions. Australia's prison systems vary between the states, but are generally modern, well-run, and well respected among professionals, and I never said anything different.

"hard time" is a term with specific meaning
You actually said 'sentenced to hard jail'. Now I can't find anything about that expression in Australian english. In this country you are either in jail or not and if you want to get truly pedantic try this re jail or prison.
Its from New Idea ( they haven't had one in 50 years ) which is a ladies' magazine
https://www.newidea.com.au/australia...ian-jails-like
Those blokes in WA will not being doing it 'hard' - they will be in the 'Alan Bond Wing'.

They had it coming? Well yes they did.
Pandemic times call for Pandemic measures. You may have missed the memo but these are not normal times.
Maybe if the place without the kangaroos had acted sooner they would not be where they are today.
Lets not start on indigenous incarceration - and indigenous treatment in the local lockup on a Saturday night - which is a blot on all of Australia.