Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Rapid mass antigen lateral flow tests are unable to distinguish between infected people, who are no longer transmitting the virus, and those who are still infectious.

This could be problematic, if someone interpreted a negative test result, as a license to stop taking precautions and, for example, attend a party, or visit an elderly relative indoors.

However, the test is better at detecting people with high viral loads, who are most likely to pass the virus to other people.

Gord, I think it's all about risks.


I don't think an unvaccinated person with a negative test, is more likely to be spreading the virus than an untested vaccinated person. Probably less so.

[GordMay]

I didn't intend to underplay the value of rapid testing.

Canada 'grossly underutilizing' rapid tests, experts warn — even as COVID-19 cases tick up
"In general, in Canadian settings, we're still grossly underutilizing these," said Dr. Isaac Bogoch, an infectious diseases specialist in Toronto.
"These are cheap, easy-to-use tests that can really drive smart behaviour.
"It's important for people to remember that rapid tests basically address the question: Am I contagious to other people with COVID-19 at this moment: yes or no?”
More ➥ https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canad...k-up-1.6278133


Twitter account hopes to be like Vaccine Hunters — but for COVID-19 rapid testing
A Kitchener, Ont., doctor is behind a new Twitter account that hopes to be the next Vaccine Hunters — but instead of helping people find COVID-19 vaccines, it'll help them find rapid tests to detect the virus.
More ➥ https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitch...ting-1.6277036

COVID Test Finders ➥ https://mobile.twitter.com/c19testfinders

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Gord, I think it's all about risks.


I don't think an unvaccinated person with a negative test, is more likely to be spreading the virus than an untested vaccinated person. Probably less so.

It’s an irrelevant perspective , largely because increasingly , Gov policy everywhere is to restrict the social activities of the unvaccinated. At some point most people trade their intellectual objections for an easy life. A few don’t of course.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

It’s an irrelevant perspective , largely because increasingly , Gov policy everywhere is to restrict the social activities of the unvaccinated. At some point most people trade their intellectual objections for an easy life. A few don’t of course.

It's an interesting challenge of policy.

Do we push people to get vaccinated, by intentionally making life hard for them without vaccination?

Or do we make it so that they can participate in society if they substitute vaccination with frequent testing?

The first thing might help get more of the population vaccinated, something we desperately need. But it's unkind.

I generally prefer education to coercion; societies with less coercion are clearly better societies, with more trust, more cooperation.

But society has a strong interest in reaching a critical level of vaccination in the population, so even compulsory vaccination might be justified in some cases.

So it's not a simple black and white question in my view.

[GordMay]

“Rapid coronavirus tests: a guide for the perplexed” ~ by Giorgia Guglielmi, for ‘Nature’

Scientists still debate whether millions of cheap, fast diagnostic kits will help control the pandemic. Here’s why.

The only thing the scientists do agree on is that there needs to be clear communication about what rapid tests are for, and what a negative result means.
“Throwing tools at people who don’t know how to use them appropriately is a terrible idea,”

MUCH more ➥ https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00332-4

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

It’s an irrelevant perspective , largely because increasingly , Gov policy everywhere is to restrict the social activities of the unvaccinated. At some point most people trade their intellectual objections for an easy life. A few don’t of course.

It is not universally irrelevant. There will be very little differentiation between vaccinated and unvaccinated in NSW Australia from the 15th December. At the same time almost all restrictions are being dropped, except for international travel where the unvaccinated will need to quarantine for 14 days on return.

I wonder if this will change given the rising number of Omicron cases?

https://www.nsw.gov.au/covid-19/easi...opening-in-dec

PS Lateral flow tests only became available in Australia in November and are still costly (around $25 for two tests).

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It's an interesting challenge of policy.

Do we push people to get vaccinated, by intentionally making life hard for them without vaccination?

Or do we make it so that they can participate in society if they substitute vaccination with frequent testing?

The first thing might help get more of the population vaccinated, something we desperately need. But it's unkind.

I generally prefer education to coercion; societies with less coercion are clearly better societies, with more trust, more cooperation.

But society has a strong interest in reaching a critical level of vaccination in the population, so even compulsory vaccination might be justified in some cases.

So it's not a simple black and white question in my view.

Again , if one looks at mainstream Government policy , one sees clear evidence of “ gentle “ coercion , or not so gentle as from January in Greece.

Restrictions on travel , access to shops , hospitality etc . Most people give in an will get the shots on the end.

[Zippee]

Let's think this through. Any test is a snapshot in time .



The just tested un-vaccinated person may test negative, yes, but only until he opens the door and leaves the premises. A snapshot. Having just taken the test, this person is unlikely to take another one very soon, and goes on with his/her un-vaccinated life.

It's a given that the un-vaccinated are MUCH more like to become infected, get sicker and/or die - ergo much more likely to shed and spread the virus. This is true regardless of a snapshot test or not, which is accurate for that moment only.

However, politically speaking it would appear to be another matter. Many anti-vaxxers also don't believe Covid is a real thing, or that they won't get it, that's is just like a cold or ordinary flu, and/or easily treated with home remedies. However, a easy provided home test resulting in a positive might well change some reluctant minds and attitudes and encourage early and effective medical intervention.

Most of us do not fear being mugged, but when someone sticks what looks like a gun in your face...

[davil]

[QUOTE=Zippee;3534552]Let's think this through. Any test is a snapshot in time .



The just tested un-vaccinated person may test negative, yes, but only until he opens the door and leaves the premises. A snapshot. Having just taken the test, this person is unlikely to take another one very soon, and goes on with his/her un-vaccinated life.

=============================
drifting from the thread BUT related to why taking a crew these days may prove challenging if not impossible
Though choices.

[Zippee]

Breaking: important report re Denmark, Finland, S. Africa, et al... a must watch... Omicron still mild... BUT... a concerning increase in deaths in SA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r0AA41dgLU

[laird]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Rapid mass antigen lateral flow tests are unable to distinguish between infected people, who are no longer transmitting the virus, and those who are still infectious.

This could be problematic, if someone interpreted a negative test result, as a license to stop taking precautions and, for example, attend a party, or visit an elderly relative indoors.

However, the test is better at detecting people with high viral loads, who are most likely to pass the virus to other people.

We all have been issued with lateral flow tests and the instruction to test every 2 days

The situation is changing quite rapidly ,however our governments recent fiaso over Xmas parties has left people feeling a bit rebellious

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The new restrictions in the UK are similar to what we have here. Work from home is a recommendation, as is masking in shops and public transportation, none of this is mandatory.


However, requiring a vaccine certificate as a condition to entering a restaurant or other public gathering venue, which is optional for the owner or organizer, seems to be almost universally implemented. Restaurants who choose to require a vaccine cert are allowed to stay open as late as they want, it seems.


Free antigen tests, self administered, and accepted in lieu of a vaccine cert is I think a terrific, humane idea. Kudos to the Scots. That will make "vaccine apartheid" much milder, without, I guess, adding much risk. Self-administration means you don't have to go somewhere and stand in line for it, a huge impediment to something casual like going to a restaurant. I think this is really good policy which will allow also unvaccinated people to participate in society.

With self administered test theres no proof that someone took the test and I suspect the majority of anti vaxxers would just upload the code without bothering with the test.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Anders

With self administered test theres no proof that someone took the test and I suspect the majority of anti vaxxers would just upload the code without bothering with the test.

yes but thats a minority of people , lets trust people . In Ireland for example the vast amount of measures are merely public health advice , yet they are followed to a very high degree of compliance largely because people have confidence in the public health advice and the senior people behind it

[Zippee]

Being afraid of a vaccine and finding out whether you have Covid are two different things. I suspect that most people - Vax or Anti - will want to know, and if they privately discover that they are positive, might well be more likely to call their doctor than the restaurant.

Or order delivery, lol...

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by Zippee

Breaking: important report re Denmark, Finland, S. Africa, et al... a must watch... Omicron still mild... BUT... a concerning increase in deaths in SA.

https://youtu.be/gjvKWpEQUwY

Situatiion in South Afrika and analysis of the alarmistic study of Omicron.

Basically 12 blood samples, 6 fully vaccinated 6 recovered and vaccinated, one of them was vaccinated and had a break through with delta (supposedly immune-compromised) .

Findings, omicron was not neutralized by the vaccines antibodies in the blood and the guy's blood with breakthrough delta was also not neutralizing omicron, 5 former infected and recovered neutralized omicron. In vitro test of old blood samples, no actual infection on the participants, strange finding on severity without even having to analyse a real infected person.

Findings twisted to fit narrative for boosters. Enjoy.
Study funded by Bill and Melinda Gates foundation, CDC and all the other suspects, a big team of international virologists based in SA involved, big coverage in the MSM.

Second part, real situation on the ground in the hospitals of SA after Omicron outbreak - latest data ICU, ventillations and deaths.